Let me re-phrase that. I sent you a white flag letter and I am going to answer what you just wrote. .A.

You are forgetting that the flesh wars against the Spirit and that makes it almost impossible to do this simply by desire. There needs to be a significant other life inside a person for them to live as Christ lived, dare I say Christ himself who fulfilled the law and the prophets.

What should be asked is why is it with the promise of eternal life in a person they still fall down and fail and do stuff that is really inconsitent. It is because it is far harder to be a Christian than it is to be religious. It is easier to just obey the commands and life from the old flesh power, than it is to overcome the flesh with the Spirit, this is what I am talking about.

The former is tidy and everyone is happy. Paul was a Pharisee of Pharisees, which meant that he kept the law impeccably. The latter is messy and that is why so many of Paul's letters were addressed to Christians who were screwing up. Rebukes, anathemas, harsh words, to get them to listen. Often in his teaching Paul would use the phrase, 'because of the weakness of your flesh', the life in the Spirit it hardest for it requires us to completely rely upon Christ. That is what Paul means when he asks, 'Recieved ye the Spirit by the works of the law or by the hearing of faith', this life is from faith to faith...what Paul refer to as the fight of faith.

'For without faith it is impossible to please God.'

Okay,
.A.

ps. Goodnight Gideon. I really need to sleep. If you feel like discussing this further, I will be happy to share the few crumbs I have with you via email aeryck@telkomsa.net

Well, that's a lot of talking.

As far as I can tell, Jesus taught a couple things strongly. One was not to compare yourself with other Christians. Another was to pay attention to your own self before you even think about looking at someone else's life. He taught to care about others before you care about what others are doing.

Reply By: JythierPosted: Monday, November 12, 2007 Well, that's a lot of talking. As far as I can tell, Jesus taught a couple things strongly. One was not to compare yourself with other Christians. Another was to pay attention to your own self before you even think about looking at someone else's life. He taught to care about others before you care about what others are doing.

I ran across this Muslim saying and incorporated it into my own life, The question was "what is the greatest Jihad" the answer is "the war with oneself"

Just because the Church preaches forgiveness, and "I agree with Gideon", forgiveness comes with the knowledge that the individule is A) sorry (if one is, one would not have the intent to repeat, would one?) and Try to improve ones behavior and treatment of others, otherwise you have not truely repented, therefore you would not be forgiven. I think Marvin is in for a bit of a suprise if he really thinks he can lead a life of total abandon and then seek continual forgiveness. Sounds a bit like stabbing someone and saying sorry then stabbing them again.

Indeed some do, but it has a way of catching up with one. 'Your sins shall surely find you out,' and 'what you sow, you reap.' Touche. One needs to remember that often people who say such things might well be in the net of trouble already. Remember what Jesus Christ said to Peter, 'Satan WANTED TO HAVE YOU, TO SIFT YOU but I have prayed for you that your faith may remain.' Also remember the incident where two fellas were blaspheming (Christians mind you) and what did Paul do, he handed them over to Satan so that they would learn not to. To often we worry ourselves about these matters when God is well able to bring into line the weaker or more rebellious sheep that stray. Apparently, and I am not to sure of this but sheep herders might break the leg of a sheep who continually strayed, a bit extreme, but GOD will discipline his children for he has no BASTARDS.

Ummmm?

.A.

AERYCK POSTS: #18



A, from what I've read thusfar, everyone understands this as well....that the free gift of salvation is through Christ's Redemptive work.

When St.Paul says that Faith does not come by works, v.9, he is referring to things man can do on his own, without the help of grace. If Faith did come from works, then man would have something to boast to God about --something which would bring salvation witout dependence on Christ---which would be inadmissable, becasue oUr Lord's death would make no sense nor would even the Incarnation of the Word, whom "God has made our wisdom, our righteousness, sanctification and redemption." "Let him who boasts, boasts of the Lord."



If I read correctly, it is you who seems to be discounting works at all (as old system of religion) saying we can leave it all up to Christ's Redemptive work and the Spirit. Reading further in Ephesians we learn that the fruit of the Redemptive act of Christ's Crucifixion brings about our reconciliation with God Rom. 5:10, 2Cor. 5:18, and it affects everyone, Gentiles, Jews, all creation Col. 1:20 (but doesn't necessarily guarantee everyone is saved).


GIDEON WRITES:



To me, this is a pretty good summation of v. 10.

As a Catholic, mine would be this way: The Christian became a new creation, "we are his workmanship" when he was given new life into Christ at Baptism 2Cor. 5:17. Once justified by Baptism, he could live in a manner consistent with his faith, that is with his new life in Christ. The life of grace in fact moves him to do those good works which God wishes to see performed (for He has already laid down that this should be so) and which perfect the work of salvation. Deeds, works proves the genuineness of faith: "faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead." St.James 2:17. Without these, works --and by works, I mean and only mean the practice of theological and moral virtues, not only would faith be dead; our love for God and our neighbor would be false.

Having said that, I believe it is also true that to bring about this renewal in man God counts on man's readiness to respond to His grace and on his carrying out "good works".

In short, "good works" are a fruit of faith, hope and love in our new life in Christ.

Having said that, I believe it is also true that to bring about this renewal in man God counts on man's readiness to respond to His grace and on his carrying out "good works".

It really depends when you see this renewal taking place. At the cross, or at conversion ? That is the difference between imputation and impartation. The Scriptures teach the former. The matter of sanctification is what is in view and to be honest with you that seems to be God's workmanship too, as he purifies unto Himself, a peculiar people ZEALOUS of good works. (Eph. 2 and Titus 2)

To often the idea of being a Christian is based purely on being a good person, the world is full of good people and being good is NOT ENOUGH. We need to be PERFECT, for it is Jesus who said, 'be ye perfect even as your Heavenly Father is perfect.' That is only possible because of imputation, the idea of impartation is completely alien to the Scriptures. Christians are sinners saved by GRACE and declared RIGHTEOUS because of what JESUS DID, the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer, is for some quick, but it really depends on whether or not we live by the flesh (our own good works) or we walk in the Spirit (Christ's good works which he before prepared for us to walk in). The idea of the simplex, (all can become Christians by choice, and moral reformation) is completely alien to the truth that God elect some to eternal life, and others he reprobates. Sadly, modern religion is more like a campaign of social reform, but LACKS the genuine FAITH TO FAITH idea. To tag on works, is to tag on death, or dead works which unless there is godly sorrow; brought about by THE CONVICTION OF THE HOLY SPIRIT there will be NO FRUIT OF THE SPIRIT, hence no faith working by love. The ongoing changes in the life of a believer are either brought about by the arm of the flesh, or by the arm of the Spirit. (I suggest you read Romans 8, again Lula. One day it will sink in and you will leave the faith-works teaching for the true teachings about GOD's Sovereing Grace.)

Faith to faith,

.A.

Dear Lula,

Perhaps the two most pertinent questions on this topic are asked by the Apostle Paul in Galatians, the first I (believe) I have already mentioned here; the second is laden with honey.

'Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?'
(Galatians 3:3)

The apostle or St. Paul is actually calling someone who tries to be PERFECT (as the Heavenly Father) by the flesh...a FOOL. That should be enough to get most Christians who are following a teaching that is flesh, sitting up and scratching their heads and wondering what on earth Paul means. It is easy for me to understand for I once was one of those people. Just like the Jews who had been 'hypnotised' (in witchy sort of way), to get back into circumcision...just like those Hebrews Christians who had gone back to the teachings of JUDAISM (and when you do that you will find that you will now be a debtor to the whole law, to do ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING...by the flesh, and not the Spirit.)

To often those who IMAGINE themselves to be Christian, have done so by making THEIR OWN CHOICE of GOD, but GOD has not yet chosen them. They further extend the error by being just like those Jewish Christians, they live out of what they are, 'flesh' and they seem to be good and dandy Christians to everyone and in essense they are as phony as the Pharisees, who Jesus rebuked and called CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL. (Which is what they were, not having yet been born of the Spirit.)

The main point is that a Christian who has, will hover between flesh and Spirit, because it is a WAR in the person (as already explained here). This war means that there is 'no moral perfection' - the sort that good people (imagining themselves to be Christian) and some Christians who have been decieved into living out of the flesh, by being good people, find the end results are the same, 'self righteousness' - instead of the righteousness of Christ, first covering one, secondly working in one. (God really works!)

This life of being a Christian is not like being a Jew or a Muslim, or for that matter ANY RELIGION. The Christian teaching that pushes MORAL change, really has a tiny picture of what God had in mind when He sent His Son, and when His Son decided to come and lay down His life. The change that is to happen is described as being a change that the Christian does not even really know what it is, but that when they see JESUS, they will be like Him. (...having passed from this life.) We have a few hints at what God has in mind, in Paul's words...'Conformed to the likeness of His Son.' To imagine that, is to get a better idea of how pointless 'moral change' is. It need to be BIGGER, considerably BIGGER...to that end, we cannot just rely upon choosing God ( inadequate ) or choosing to be good ( inadequate ) Being a Christian in the real sense is CONSIDERABLY BIGGER than that. There needs to be GOD choosing and God working inside the person. To make it all about us or part God part us, is to reduce Christianity to the level of pagan religion and it will always be inadequate...fifthy rags, instead of the righteousness - right standing with God, and the outworking of something as magnificent as the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit. Anything short of that is basically 'A FORM OF GODLINESS' but it 'LACKS THE POWER' to actually change a life SIGNIFICANTLY ENOUGH, to facilitate a SPECIES CHANGE from child of man, to CHILD OF GOD. Paul uses the word, 'translation' from one kingdom to another, and subsequent to that being 'seated in heavenly places in CHRIST JESUS,' or 'our lives are hidden with Christ, in GOD.' IT IS BIGGER THAN RELIGION ITSELF!

I know I have gone on a bit, but these things are not always easy to explain, and often require numerous examples.

.A.

I can't begin to imagine the purpose of an article like this. Another name for Satan is "accuser of the brethren"; let's not be too quick to join his side.

Yes, the title is a dead give away: "Christians Aren't Perfect, Just Forgiven" is a COP OUT!!! The truth is Christians are not perfect...the only ones I met that imagined they were, were generally uptight, unpleasant and full of themselves. (and generally looked down on everyone else, from their lonely perch.) Most of the Christians that were worth knowing were the real sinners that fell down hard just like everyone else. The sort that Gideon probably enjoys drinking with at the local tavern.

Rock on,
.A.

Oh, the irony of accusing me while calling me an "accuser of the brethren". Nice, Dan.

OK, have it your way. You question my faith because I dare believe that Christians should ACT like Christian, I will let you have the term. By your definition, I'm not a Christian, OK, because I believe that Baptist deacons who perjure themselves before the state in a deliberate attempt to hurt innocent people aren't going to heaven just because they said a little prayer in front of people 20 years ago. I believe that, while we are certainly saved by grace through faith, the word "Holy" should mean something. I might also point out that in the list of people you've disqualified from being Christians would include Jesus, the apostle Paul, James, Peter, and just about every other New Testament writer, so I'm in good company.

I might also point out the irony of you claiming all it takes is a little prayer to be saved, yet saying anyone who says works are important is a non-Christian. If all it takes is a little prayer, aren't those who say we should lead Godly lives Christian too, no matter how you might despise their theology?

I'm kind of surprised by your response, Dan, because I've usually found you to be a pretty good person, and I believe in the sincerity of your faith through everything I have seen here. Do you really feel that God doesn't expect us to live holy lives? If you feel that way, why DO you try to lead a holy life? If it's not expected of you, why don't you ignore living the way God would have you live and just live your own way? I'm pretty sure I know the answer to that, but I won't put words in your mouth.

The truth is, God states pretty clearly in Revelation His contempt for the lukewarm. Why would He say that if He didn't care how we live our lives? Why would He cast anyone out if He didn't hope (read: NOT demand!) that we would want something better?

"Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven" IS a cop out, dan. I never said it wasn't true; it certainly is. But Paul talks about the difference between liberty and license, and just because we have the liberty to sin does NOT mean we have a license to do so.

LULA POSTS:



Aeryck,

I agree 100% with you here.


Evidently from your writing this I have not made myself clear what I mean by good works..See for yourself, by "good works", I don't mean living by the flesh or somthing that man does on his own, but "good works" are only those through faith, hope and charity (love) for God for His own sake and love of neighbor.

That's how I summed in up:


above #38, I wrote in italics what 'good works' are:



What justifies a person is faith which works through charity. Faith which is not presumptuous self-confidence in one’s own merits, but a firm and ready acceptance of Christ’s merits and to repent of one’s sins.

Aeryck,

Granted, Christianity is not like Judaism or Mohammedism.

However, the practice of Christ's religion IS the life of being a Christian...

After Christ ascended into Heaven, He didn't leave us high and dry flailing in the wind...He established His Church on the leadership of St.Peter and promised He'd be with her until the end of time and that the gates of Hell will not prevail....His promise was fulfilled on the First Pentecost day when His fledgling Church was strengthened by the Holy Spirit...and went on its God given mission to teach all nations until the end of time.

Just read....it's all there in Scripture.

Yet, Catholics are re-born in the Spirit when we are Baptised just as Christ told us to do in St.Matt. 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the SOn and of the Holy Spirit. Here, the Sacrament of Baptism as a means of grace infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul. In the ark, 8 people were saved through water. Baptism which corresponds to this now saves us, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God through Christ's Passion and Resurrection 1St.Peter. 3:20-21.

By our Christ-instituted Sacrament of Baptism we are saved, buried with Christ, incorporated into His Body, by the Holy Spirit our soul is purified of our sins. We are regenerated and cleansed. Scripture is loaded with passages to support this.

From the days of the first APostles, Baptism was the universally accepted rite of our inheritance into God's family. It was always held to convey the remission of sins, we descend into the water, "dead" and come out "alive", the Holy Spirit that comes is God Himself dwelling in the believer, and the resulting life is a re-creation. Prior to Baptism, our heart was an abode of demons, but Baptism supplies us with the weapons for our spiritual warfare. Read the Church Fathers, Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Ignatius of Antioch, Hermas, the letter of Barnabas, Clement of Alexandria to name a few.