The journey from there to here

Flag desecration was once supposed to be a HUGE issue. Remember that? Politicians, wearing portions of the flag as articles of their clothing, often ties (ignoring the irony that their OWN actions are, technically, considered desecration as well) standing on their soapboxes and promising the full force of law to come down on Americans who desecrate our nations sacred fibers?

Or how about cross desecration? Doesn't go over big in the Bible belt, last I heard.

And, last, but not least, how about dishonoring the memory of our fallen soldiers. Not even the most militant leftists are stupid enough to do that.

And yet, one idiot in Crawford Texas simultaneously does all three and it generates all the noise of a butterfly fart.

You see, Cindy Sheehan painstakingly set up a memorial to the fallen soldiers. Regardless of her intent, the memorial was sincere and should have been regarded as such, her political identity notwithstanding. But a particular resident of George W. Bush's Texas home community took it upon himself to drive his four wheel drive through the memorial. News footage showed crosses and flags strewn across a bar ditch. The message was clear: regardless of the nature of a protest, dissent will not be tolerated in Crawford, Texas.

Now's the time for the District Attorney to act. We have anti-flag desecration laws. We have "hate crimes" legislation. Under the technical definitions of BOTH, this act applies (are you LISTENING, fed? Just because a CHRISTIAN religious symbol was attacked doesn't make it any less a desecration than a graffitti painted mosque or synagogue).

I, of course, do not see these actions as meriting the full force of the law. I don't see EITHER law cited as being "fair" or "reasonable". But, in front of our nation's highest court sits a statue of lady justice, blindfolded, holding a pair of scales. The concept of the artist was to depict the idea that justice is supposed to be blind. And if it is blind, then the full force of law should apply as much to this idiot as it does to a socialist flag burner on a public square in DC. In fact, the only REASONABLE law that I see this man as having violated is the act of vandalism, as those items were the owned property of another. But again, let's return to the concept of justice and the fact that it should apply EQUALLY to this man.

Otherwise, I have a gift of my own I'd like to give the citizens of Crawford, Texas. I would be willing to handpaint a sign stating "Welcome to Crawford, Texas. Leave your Constitutional Rights at the Door">


Comments (Page 3)
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on Aug 18, 2005
Baker?

I have to wonder if dubya really cares about the opinions of Sheehan or her supporters. Based on his actions so far...I think not. It's the two way street thing.

Have they learned the lessons of previous conflicts? I think they might have glossed over them for a second, but chose to disregard them because of their self-righteous attitude towards Iraq. These guys took their eyes off the prize in our war on terror. They expanded it not only by invading Iraq. They compounded it by motivating the militant arab world into insurgency, and have basically ignored the top priority (Osama/Afghanistan) in the process.

I think that what rombios said for the most part is a load of crappola. But i agree 100% on the point of the resurgence of the Taliban. You just can't fight a two front war in the arab world.

You take them on one at a time...Unless you are Israel of course.


Excellent article Gid. I'm sorry i didn't pick up on it sooner. Sorry to deviate a bit.
on Aug 18, 2005
SLC.

Whether you think that Hussein had any connection with terrorism or not, one thing is for sure, the bacteria we are fighting in Iraq are the terrorists. Whether "Muhammad went to the mountain or the mountain went to Muhammad" is now not much more than a matter of historical debate. The fact is, the war in Iraq is not only part of the war on terror, it has become the epicenter of the war on terror. It has also become the single most important page in the present chapter of the war on terror. If we cut and run now, the terrorist who have travelled to Iraq will become the new regime in Iraq. Not only that but Muslim Extremists will be emboldened to take action everywhere they are of a mind to.

Our actions of the past sent the message to the Muslim Extremists that if you make it hurt, Americans will back down. Yes, people have died and have been wounded in Iraq, yes, there are people who are profiting from the war in Iraq. Yes, there are troops who have commited war crimes in Iraq. However, Iraqis have voted in a government. They are working out a Constitution. Which of these two facts are bad things? How many lives would have been "too much" for your own freedom?

You may not think that the goal is freedom for Iraqis. However, what is the goal of the people who put that bomb next to that hospital?
on Aug 18, 2005

DID NOT CALL THE MAN A REDNECK. Reread the article and show me ONE QUOTE WHERE I DID. I called the man an IDIOT. Big difference. If you assume that by "idiot", I meant "redneck", YOU are doing the stereotyping, NOT me!

I understand.  However, all of those quotes were from a single response (and hence why I really dont like long responses).  So thank you for clarifying the commie quote, I retract my statement about rednecks, and I will agree that he is an idiot.  However, many 'rednecks' are decrying the actions of this idiot.  That is where they are.

on Aug 18, 2005

LW - That quoted line was from me, and it's not much of a disagreement with your premise. All I was saying is that those who scream over the flag being burned in protest should be equally up in arms about people running them over with cars because they're being used in a protest they disagree with.

And my point is - Who is saying they are not?

on Aug 18, 2005
"I have to wonder if dubya really cares about the opinions of Sheehan or her supporters. Based on his actions so far...I think not. It's the two way street thing."


I don't know, I think you'd have to be a robot not to feel something. Maybe he doesn't weep for them at night, but I can't believe anyone could get by and not be effected by the kind of Waco-esque siege that it being undertaken.

As far as the Taliban, what do you do with them? They blend back into the population. Do you have round-ups and interrogate people? What if they lie? Do you torture them to make sure they aren't Taliban? When you do, more become Taliban. Do you put their nation in a hammer lock and don't let them have enough freedom to abuse? What would rombios be saying then?

The whole "resurge" is bunk. It took 19 people to change the US permanently. It took like 3 people to undertake the Oklahoma City bombing. With the press rabidly looking for anything negative to print, you don't have to have a rapidly-recruiting Taliban.

rombios sees what he wants to see. He's embittered by what he thinks was done to his country, and now he looks for anything to hurl at the US. I feel for anyone who lives with that kind of sickness in them.
on Aug 18, 2005
and P.S.

  • The cross has never been considered sacrosanct in the US. The only laws I know of were Liberal 'intimidation' laws. If so, the crosses here were political intimidation to begin with. Protest is basically a form of intimidation.
  • Burning crosses is actually a 'redneck' stereotype.
  • The Supreme Court struck down laws that criminalized burning a cross.
  • Are "socialist flag burners" charged with burning flags? Or setting fires in a public place. Considering the crosses were on the shoulder of the road, I doubt the vandalism charge would stick. Anyone could swerve and take them out. They'd have to have a law against knocking over roadside crosses.
  • If they were purposely knocked down, isn't that a form of protest? Even if it is illegal, is it insipid, or 'civil disobedience'. I guess it is only civil disobedience if you drive a sedan and live above the mason/dixon line...

So, I don't see the hubbub here. Just thought I'd say it again. Heck, Gid likes points.
on Aug 19, 2005
I beg to differ Baker.

If the current adminstration did not invent the premise for invasion of Iraq, we could have dedicated more of our military resources to the fight in Afghanistan. But they chose to settle an old score.

Remember one thing. As bad as Saddam is, he never attacked the US. The Taliban and Al Qaida did. We created new enemies when we had plenty of them to eliminate in the first place.
on Aug 19, 2005
"If the current adminstration did not invent the premise for invasion of Iraq, we could have dedicated more of our military resources to the fight in Afghanistan. But they chose to settle an old score. "


You didn't get my point. No amount of forces would stop what is happening there now. We could multiply them by ten and it wouldn't matter. You look at a guy, he smiles and waves, and you don't know that he is "taliban". They don't wear nametags.

The only way to stop that kind of behavior is to rid the Afghanis of their freedom, and become what the Taliban was. We won't do that.
on Aug 19, 2005
If the current adminstration did not invent the premise for invasion of Iraq, we could have dedicated more of our military resources to the fight in Afghanistan. But they chose to settle an old score.

Remember one thing. As bad as Saddam is, he never attacked the US. The Taliban and Al Qaida did. We created new enemies when we had plenty of them to eliminate in the first place.


SLC, please tell me how many times the Commander of Operations over Afghanistan has been denied troops or assets because the Commander of Ops over Iraq said he needed them more.

Also, yes, Iraq did attack the U.S... when they broke the Safwan Accords (the ceasefire) by placing anti aircraft batteries in the North and South No Fly Zones firing their anti aircraft guns at U.S. and British jets... or don't you think an attack on our pilots is an attack on the U.S.?
on Aug 19, 2005
I will concede your point Ted. I had forgot about that.

But did anyone die? No.

Did Saddam blow up a Navy ship, blast two embassies, or fly three airliners into buildings located withing the borders of the USA, killing a couple thousand civilians? No.

Saddam was at best a reigonal threat. The first gulf war, and the following sanctions were effective in keeping him from re-building his military to pre Gulf War I standards.

Al Qaida is a different type of enemy. A non centralized, non national, cell based enemy. Tougher to spot, tougher to fight. Privately financed, and global. We have cells in our own country that can be activated at a moments notice. This enemy requires more dilligence in pursuing, and a much larger contribution of resources from the US intelligence community.

Baker,

My point is not that the resources are stretched to the point of denying the ground forces supplies or logistical support.
You are probably right when you say that that no amount of armed forces cannot stop what is going on. But if we were to allocate the intelligence apparatus that we have dedicated to the Iraq fiasco over to Afghanistan. We would have a better chance of finally eradicating the Taliban and Al Qaida.

And a few thousand more ground troops wouldnt hurt either!





on Aug 19, 2005
[One question for you vets about this, though. There are some clear cut rules on how the flag should be treated (hint: running over them with a pickup truck ain't among the approved methods of disposal). If this man happens to have a military background (or better yeat, a status such as IRR), is there any action that the military could take? Just a little trivia for my own info.

No. The military cannot take actions against veterans. By IRR I'm going to assume you mean Idividual Ready Reserve, which is a little bit different. In order for the military to take action in this case, they would have to show the individual was on orders (40A, IDT, AD, etc), or wearing the uniform, before they could do anything. In most cases when a Reservist isn't on duty they're a civilian. I doubt this would fall under those other cases.

And, yea, I would consider running over the Flag to be descration. As for the wearing of the Flag, the UNITED STATES CODE, TITLE 36, CHAPTER 10, Section 176. Respect for flag, covers, in part, the wearing of the Flag. It is pretty explicit about this and states the following:
(d) The flag should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, or drapery. It should never be festooned, drawn back, nor up, in folds, but always allowed to fall free. Bunting of blue, white, and red, always arranged with the blue above, the white in the middle, and the red below, should be used for covering a speaker's desk, draping the front of the platform, and for decoration in general.
(j) No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.

Notice it states the Flag, as a whole or in part (that means you can't separate the field and use it as a bandana, or the strinps and use them as a belt). It doesn't mean you can't make a tie that looks like the Flag, or a shirt that looks like one and wear that. I have a couple of ties that look like Flags and proudly wear them. What you will never, ever see me do is drape a Flag over my shoulders like some kind of cape.

JollyFE
on Aug 20, 2005

P.S. If I am not mistaken, in 2001 the Supreme court overturned the convictions of people convicted of burning crosses on the grounds of free speech. If you can burn a cross to make a point, you can certainly run over one in a truck.

So, that would make this a case of civil disobedience, wouldn't it? I always thought you were a fan of civil disobedience, Gid.

Umm, my point was NOT that this man should be prosecuted. Frankly, he shouldn't.

My point was (and is) that justice should be fair and that if it's right to punish others for the same action, he should be punished as well. Ultimately, I was arguing that the laws that he "violated" should be either upheld or stricken from the books. Frankly, I'd rather see them stricken from the books and this incident illustrates WHY I feel that way. All this man should "owe" anyone for his actions is Ms. Sheehan for the vandalism of her property.

But I wasn't the one  lobbying for anti-flag burning laws.

on Aug 20, 2005

Gid has always stood for people's right to commit acts of civil disobedience as long as they were willing to pay the legal price. Evidently this time is different.

Not at all different. I'm asking for justice to be applied equally, as I explained in the response above.

on Aug 20, 2005
"Not at all different. I'm asking for justice to be applied equally, as I explained in the response above."


Honestly Gid, this doesn't make sense. Can you point out where in the US we punish people for burning flags? If this guy gets a pass, could you point out someone who didn't get a pass on flag burning?

The Supreme court ruled that flag-burning laws were unconsitutional back in, what, 1980 something? That's why some people are wanting to make an amendment to make it illegal. I don't think a prosecutor can prosecute based upon amendments that haven't been passed yet.

And, as I said, the Supreme Court already ruled that cross "desecration", burning, etc., for 'ethnic intimidation' laws were unconsitutional. So, it looks like to me the world is just the way you want it to be. Neither the flag burners, nor the cross runner-overers are getting punished for their acts of protest.

I mean, your point here is one of equity, but you aren't showing the other side of the equation. Who has this prosecutor, or anyone is recent history, legally persecuted for burning flags?

Please explain what is being done to flag burners that won't be done to this guy. Please. That is the basis of your point, right? Also, the line:

"Or how about cross desecration? Doesn't go over big in the Bible belt, last I heard."


Could you back that up? At least from my perspective I have never, once, heard anyone complain about cross desecration that wasn't pissed of f about racism of the KKK. Could you point out where anyone has made a fuss about cross desecration?
on Aug 22, 2005
I didn't catch this incident in the news at all. I take from what is being said here, a lot of people were upset with the guy for running over the Flag. The protesters were excersizing their rights of free speech by putting up the display, the driver was excersizing his by running over the display. I haven't seen anyone, anywhere say anyone there had the moral courage to recover the Flag, fold it properly and conduct a proper ceremony for retiring the Colors. Or did they just throw it in the trash (which I have seen done before) or are they reusing it. Both no-no's. It appears to me, both sides want to use it as the central point of an argument, but neither side wants to treat it with the respect it so richly, and rightly deserves. If someone has access to the Flag, I can bc them with a snail mail address where it can be sent to me and my Boy Scout Troop will carry out the honors.

JollyFE
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