The journey from there to here

First and foremost, I must say that I am relieved Zarqawi is dead. His death stands to throw the terrorist organization into chaos at least briefly, and may help us to catch terrorists. But morally I cannot celebrate it.

It's not even tied to my opposition to the death penalty. You will get no question from me that our government has the legal, and, indeed, moral authority to execute this slime. The murders and terror he committed are not in dispute, and his punishment was just and swift.

The reason I cannot celebrate Zarqawi's death is, in part, the same reason our military cannot celebrate it. Because Zarqawi, while a key strategic target, was just one part of the horrible, unthinkable mentality that teaches that the murder of innocents to achieve a political or religious objective is justified. While Zarqawi is gone, thousands of other militant terrorists stand at the ready to continue in the cause, a cause in which they will almost certainly invoke the name of their fallen leader at least once.

Zarqawi, in other words, was not the disease; he was a symptom. And the eradication of symptoms, while offering temporary benefits, is a small victory as long as the disease remains.


Comments (Page 1)
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on Jun 08, 2006
Learn to hate, Gid, it will make things easier. This isn't a disease or a symptom, it is a lot of really evil people victimizing innocent people. Now we may never have a world with no evil people, but killing one is always something to celebrate. I don't care if three more step up tomorrow, he got at least a little of what was coming to him.

There doesn't have to be a larger picture. Sometimes killing a terrorist is just killing a terrorist. I don't think of this in terms of al qaeda, or terrorism, I think of it in terms of one, small, evil man being killed for doing evil things to innocent people. That is always going to put a smile on my face.
on Jun 08, 2006
they are standing in line to take his place on their way to heaven {they think} I say we should help them all reach that goal.
on Jun 08, 2006
I was thinking the same things. I wonder who, if anyone does, steps up and becomes the next honcho.

on Jun 08, 2006
I'm with Gid on this one. I think that he's the symptom, despite what BakerStreet has to say, there is always a bigger picture, whether we want to look at it or not.
on Jun 08, 2006
I don't think of this in terms of al qaeda, or terrorism, I think of it in terms of one, small, evil man being killed for doing evil things to innocent people. That is always going to put a smile on my face.


I understand that, and I can't say I'm disappointed in the news (it is certainly GOOD news any way you slice it). I just start to wonder if cheering every time one of them dies doesn't put us in danger of becoming as bad as they are? (NOTE: I did NOT say "make us as bad as they are" for a reason. I know we are not as bad as they are, or even CLOSE at this point. I just often wonder what makes someone evil, and am concerned that the devaluation of human life, ANY human life might be the first step on that long road).
on Jun 08, 2006
You and I will have to disagree. Some human lives are most certainly worth more than others, depending on the impact that they have on the world around them. Some, like zarqawi, who are a constant threat to innocents, are worth more dead.

As for the "bigger picture" I don't see one. I think the interconnected nature of this is overblown. In the end we have individuals who opt to do repugnant things for political reasons. I don't expect punishing criminals to end crime forever, nor do I think killing terrorists will end terrorism. That doesn't mean that the act isn't something to be celebrated, though.
on Jun 08, 2006
One less enemy = one less chance someone I love will die at the hands of terrorists = GOOD THING.
on Jun 08, 2006
While I agree with your logic, I disagree with your conclusion.

Taking out Zarqawi may only be a fleeting victory, it is still a victory. All to often we get so fixed on the "big picture" we forget to allow ourselves the pats on the back that spur us on. The whole, "yeah, the was good, but...." does more to kill motivation than almost anything else.

This was a major victory in the war effort. While it won't bring the bacteria to their knees, it does cause problems for them. More importantly though, it reveals major weaknesses in what we have been led to believe is an inpenitrable wall in the bacterias hierarchy. Zarqawi was betrayed by someone deep in his inner circle... Our military was able to exploit that weakness and not only kill Zarqawi, but kill whatever plans were being hatched in that meeting. Who knows what residual benefits we will enjoy from the success of this attack.

Just like a person whose cancer is in remission, we can't afford to rest on our laurels, but today we celebrate.
on Jun 08, 2006
The grand canyon was not created in a day, but over eons by the slow erosion of the Colorado.  The Death of Zarqawi will not stop the terorism, but it is another step in that direction.  If we are only to celebrate the final victory, we will have a long time before we can celebrate.  I choose to celebrate each step as it occurs.
on Jun 08, 2006
To Gideon:

Because Zarqawi, while a key strategic target, was just one part of the horrible, unthinkable mentality that teaches that the murder of innocents to achieve a political or religious objective is justified.


Whether or not such a mentality is 'justified' is an irrelevance, its the norm of realpolitik. As is the urge to celebrate the death of an enemy. Why is it so hard to understand that it's proper to celebrate the death of one who intended to kill you? This demented raghead killer would happily have sawed your head off and sent the video to your mother.

I don't want to be better than these people. I want to see them killed. If that makes me a bad person it at least also ensures that I am a living bad person as opposed to a dead one. I'd rather be a living dog (with VERY big teeth) than a noble but dead lion.

I'm going to celebrate the passing of this demagogue of death by facing East, doing a jig, and metaphorically pissing on his miserable desert god and every Muslim murderer along with it.

And so should you.
on Jun 08, 2006
I'm going to celebrate the passing of this demagogue of death by facing East, doing a jig, and metaphorically pissing on his miserable desert god and every Muslim murderer along with it.


Me too. And pass the pork chops...
on Jun 08, 2006
And pass the pork chops


Yeah and the pork skins!
on Jun 08, 2006
Hell yeah, why not some ribs while we're at it?


...and some cheese stuffed jalepenos wrapped in bacon for "horse ovaries"
on Jun 08, 2006

And pass the pork chops


Yeah and the pork skins!

I'll pass for now and just sprinkle pig blood.

on Jun 08, 2006
Why is it so hard to understand that it's proper to celebrate the death of one who intended to kill you?

It's not hard at all. It seems to be hardwired into us, along with our perfectly natural instinct for self-preservation. I'm personally happy to hear the news of his death, but I'm also going to do my annoying wishy-washy moderate thing and try to see another side to the picture...

Bakerstreet said, "Learn to hate, Gid, it will make things easier" and other christians who have posted here seem to agree in full. However, Gideon, and perhaps San Chonino, seem to be troubled by this, and I think for good reason. Yes, killing those who want to kill you, and your loved ones (especially your loved ones) can be both a right and a necessary thing to do. As BS has elsewhere eloquently put it, we have the right to turn the other cheek when someone attacks us, but we don't have the right to turn other people's cheeks on their behalf. So, no argument with doing away with the "bacteria" - (yes, I agree this is a good term: analogous to the germs and viruses that assault our bodies and that we destroy with antibiotics and medicines without even a second thought).

It's the hate thing though that is difficult...

Although I've never been able to find independent corroboration, someone once told me that the catholic philosopher Simone Weil had said that the death penalty was necessary for some crimes, but that, to be done in a christian way, it should be done totally impersonally, without exultation, or feelings of anger and revenge and without taking pleasure in the punishment. In a way, this is almost chillingly cold - so that by comparison cheering on the death of your enemies seems a little more human - yet, it is at least an attempt to solve a difficulty...

... and there is a difficulty to be solved. While you can find plenty in the Bible that seems to condone slaughter (the Old Testament in this respect is probably a little less forgiving and pacifist than the Quran!), there is no question that the christian message is one of forgiving not seven times, but seventy times seventy-seven times - in other words until it hurts.

But just what does that mean? The recently reported words of Nick Berg's father that he wishes that he had had a chance to meet al Zarqawi and 'reconcile', are probably naive to the point of dangerous - a serious failure to realise that there are people in this world too evil and too far gone to be reasoned with. That is the sort of 'generosity' that can endanger other people's lives.

So, clearly we need to engage our heads as well as our hearts in trying to make sense of these 'hard sayings'. In the end, I'm inclined towards the Simone Weil view. Do what has to be done, but with as little spiritual damage to ourselves as possible. However justified, however provoked, when we "learn to hate" it makes things more difficult, rather than easier. Whether or not you believe this is ultimately the litmus test of whether or not you really believe in a spiritual and transcendent aspect to reality.

None of this, of course, applies to other spiritual paths which may well profess a Nietzschean disdain for christianity's "hard sayings". I've no real quarrel with that. But if the word christian in America is to have any meaning other than a handy political code word for 'conservative', those hard sayings do need to be wrestled with.

~~ [Militantly wishy-washy interlude over. Normal service can now be resumed] ~~
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