The journey from there to here

If you read me regularly, you know I'm a champion of the fourth amendment. Even if you don't read me regularly, you can probably figure as much from my writing.

There are a lot of questions floating around now about whether President Bush (AND several key members of Congress, WITH the complicity of the New York Times,  although the media conveniently deflects this fact) violated the fourth amendment in authorizing illegal wiretaps. Arguably, the fourth AND fifth amendments could come into play here, a fact that also hasn't escaped talking heads. Frankly, in looking at the way the fourth amendment is applied, the fifth amendment argument is the stronger of the two arguments. In this article, I'm not going to spend a lot of time addressing the fifth amendment questions, or the 1978 wiretapping law (yes, the violation is still questionable, at least according to several judicial analysts...it's just not the topic I want to discuss here).

Although one's communications fall under the umbrella of a "right to privacy", such is an IMPLIED right from SCOTUS interpretations of the fourth, fifth, and sixth amendments and is not expressly guaranteed in the US Constitution. Your fourth amendment rights have generally been interpretated to mean your home, the articles on your person, and, to a lesser extent, your vehicle. Even in these cases, a "Terry standard" is occasionally applied; that is, was the search "reasonably justified" at its inception. While the definition is open to judicial interpretation, most judges at the appellate levels tend to side with the individual, not the government when defining reasonable justification. If you are pulled over for speeding, for instance, and a run of your driver's license shows several convictions for drug trafficking, you might as well sit tight. It's going to be a LONG night. Similarly, if police approach your house and smell chemicals consistent with the manufacture of methamphetamines, they will probably enter, as there isn't sufficient time to get a warrant beforehand.

But communications are another matter. Even in the best of circumstances, communications have fallen into a judicial "gray area". For at least 30 years, the government has wiretapped phones when there's a suspicion of gambling activity, or of drug trafficking. They have usually used a secret court to obtain a warrant, but some of their arrests have been upheld without a warrant. To put it simply, communication devices are not consistently upheld as one's property as far as the fourth amendment is concerned. And the Bush administration COULD make the argument that the "Terry standard" applies here, as, at least according to the information we have at present, all of the wiretaps involved calls to or from individuals with known al Qaeda links.

I don't like what President Bush did. At all. I question its constitutionality, and its legality as regards the 1978 wiretapping law. I'd like nothing more than to see him impeached, tried and convicted, IF, and ONLY if, he violated the laws of the land. Also if and only if members of Congress and the media who were aware of these actions are tried as co-conspirators. Bush's should NOt be the only head that rolls.

If a special prosecutor is appointed to investigate whether Bush broke the law or not, however, I believe they will need to look beyond the fourth amendment. There's simply not enough there to make a compelling case.


Comments (Page 3)
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on Dec 22, 2005
So far I have seen a lot of non-qualified opinions (and that includes me; I'm not an attorney), reference to a few court cases which appear to bolster the legality of Bush's actions (see the link in my post above), historical records of past presidents committing similar acts (Roosevelt comes to mind), and various opinions from qualified legal beagles, such as the AG.

What I have not seen (someone point me in the right direction, if possible) are any references to actual court decisions that indicate this being an illegal act. And I am not talking about conjecture or the opinion of unqualified legal wannabes or those with an axe to grind (see my point above on non-qualified opinions).

This leaves the question, assuming no law was broken; and it doesn't appear so at this point; perhaps there will be forthcoming decisions to add to the meager few that exist now; of whether we as the American public want this type of action to be legal.

Just my personal opinion, but I don't think anyone in Congress or the Administration wants any intensive look at this with the objective of making it illegal or preventing it from ever happening again. It has proven to be too useful a tool for presidents on both sides of the political fence. The objective now is more to use this issue as a political hammer to damage the opponent and regain political power.
on Dec 23, 2005
pictoratus -

Check out the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (FISA), also known as U.S. Code Title 50, Chapter 36. You can read it all here:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode50/usc_sup_01_50_10_36.html

This law was passed in 1978, after several of the previous court decisions that ruled that warrantless intercepts were legal. This law was in response to essentially illegal intercepts made without warrants, and put very strict limits on when intercepts can be made without a warrant.

You can also check out U.S. Signals Intelligence Directive (USSID) 18, a declassified copy of which can be found here:

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB23/07-01.htm

After all the table of contents stuff, read the paragraphs in the Preface on page 1 of the document, as well as the limitations on collection against US persons on page 2.
on Dec 23, 2005
Sturgee:
Thanks. I had read that material (not the actual documents, but excerpts) and had gotten the gist of it. Had the matter stopped there, I would think it would indicate the presidents acts were indeed illegal.

It is what came later that causes some doubt. In the most recent judicial statement I have found on the issue, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, composed of three federal appellate court judges, said in 2002 that "All the ... courts to have decided the issue held that the president did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence ... We take for granted that the president does have that authority." Additionally, the court noted that, if the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches, "FISA could not encroach on the president's constitutional power."

This power has seemed to have been used or at least claimed by past presidents as well. Under President Clinton, deputy Atty. Gen. Jamie Gorelick testified that "the Department of Justice believes, and the case law supports, that the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes."

Have you found any court decesions that seem to reverse the findings of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review?
on Dec 23, 2005
Well, I found this:

"In its plurality decision in Zweibon v. Mitchell, 516 F.2d 594, 613-14
(D.C. Cir. 1975), cert. denied, 425 U.S. 944 (1976), the District of Columbia Circuit
took a somewhat different view in a case involving a warrantless wiretap of a
domestic organization that was not an agent of a foreign power or working in
collaboration with a foreign power. Finding that a warrant was required in such
circumstances, the plurality also noted that “an analysis of the policies implicated by
foreign security surveillance indicates that, absent exigent circumstances, all
warrantless electronic surveillance is unreasonable and therefore unconstitutional.”

There have been a number of other cases challenging the legality of FISA intercepts, but the basis of the arguments were much different. In those cases, the intercepts were warranted intercepts, which the government used to gain foreign intelligence. Along the way, they found criminal activity, and prosecuted. The defendants claimed that FISA intercepts are only intended for foreign intelligence, and criminal prosecution could not use information gained through these intercepts. The various courts upheld the constitutionality of the FISA intercepts in these cases. The big thing though, is that these were warranted intercepts, and the challenge was not made to the validity of the intercepts themselves, but rather to their usage in criminal prosecutions. These cases include:

United States v. Megahey, 553 F. Supp. 1180, 1185-1193 (D.N.Y.), aff’d 729
F.2d 1444 (2d Cir. 1982)
United States v. Ott, 827 F.2d 473, 475 (9th Cir. 1987)
United States. v Badia, 827 F. 2d 1458, 1464 (11th Cir. 1987)
United States v. Johnson, 952 F.2d 565, 572 (1st Cir. 1991), rehearing and cert. denied, 506 U.S. 816 (1991)
United States v. Pelton, 835 F.2d 1067, 1074-76 (4th Cir. 1987), cert. denied, 486 U.S.1010 (1987)
United States v. Rahman, 861 F. Supp. 247, 251 (S.D. N.Y. 1994)
United States v. Bin Laden, 2001 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 15484 (S.D. N.Y., October 2, 2001)
United States v. Bin Laden, 126 F. Supp. 264, 277-78 (S.D. N.Y. 2000)
But again, all of these cases don't reinforce the need of a warrant. Rather, they show that the courts uphold the legality of using intelligence when gained through an intercept that was warranted.
All of this info, and more can be found at:

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/intel/RL30465.pdf



on Dec 23, 2005
Good info Sturgee.

Although somewhat relevant to the matter, all those cases occurred prior to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review's opinion on this type of case which came down in 2002.

It's seems the latest decision usually trumps earlier decisions on a particular legal matter. How relevant it is to the current case will probably be for legal scholars or a future court to decide. The 2002 decision certainly seems to address this issue though. And then there is the issue of just how far Congress authorized the president to go in prosecuting the war on terror. From reading the language in the authorization, it looks pretty open ended to me. I heard today that Tom Daschle said that's not what they 'meant' when the Congress authorized the act, but that tends to not carry much weight. As far as I know, it's what the law says, not what someone meant. It also seems a bit late to let everyone know what you 'meant', if you know what I mean.

Again, I think this whole issue is being used as a political tool to damage the present administration in order to gain political advantage. The result is a diversion that keeps the focus on the legality of the action rather than addressing the issue of:

(a) Should the Congress do something to prevent this from happening in the future, whether it is presently legal or not? (Assuming that is what the public wants ... that could be another argument in itself)

( Who leaked this info and is that a crime?

I believe the legality of the presidents actions should be detemined since many issues yet to be resolved will be dependant on that decision.

If illegal, there are many charges to be brought against many government officials, both in Congress and the Administration for, among others, conspiracy. Additionally the actors at the NYT are, at the very least, guilty of withholding evidence of a crime.

If legal, those persons who participated in divulging State secrets should be found and charged with the appropriate crimes.

As I said before, I don't think anyone in Congress really wants to stop this practice. Many presidents have used this type of thing in the past and I feel future presidents will want to reserve it for future use.
on Dec 23, 2005
you're a fucking Idiot I hope YOU are the only one injured in the next 911
on Dec 24, 2005

you're a fucking Idiot I hope YOU are the only one injured in the next 911

Your comment is in itself stupid and indicative of your intelligence. 

on Dec 27, 2005
you're a fucking Idiot I hope YOU are the only one injured in the next 911


could you register? We don't have enough trolls with negative rating numbers, and I'd like to see your name added to the list.

Asking questions is NOT unDemocratic!
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