The journey from there to here

If you read me regularly, you know I'm a champion of the fourth amendment. Even if you don't read me regularly, you can probably figure as much from my writing.

There are a lot of questions floating around now about whether President Bush (AND several key members of Congress, WITH the complicity of the New York Times,  although the media conveniently deflects this fact) violated the fourth amendment in authorizing illegal wiretaps. Arguably, the fourth AND fifth amendments could come into play here, a fact that also hasn't escaped talking heads. Frankly, in looking at the way the fourth amendment is applied, the fifth amendment argument is the stronger of the two arguments. In this article, I'm not going to spend a lot of time addressing the fifth amendment questions, or the 1978 wiretapping law (yes, the violation is still questionable, at least according to several judicial analysts...it's just not the topic I want to discuss here).

Although one's communications fall under the umbrella of a "right to privacy", such is an IMPLIED right from SCOTUS interpretations of the fourth, fifth, and sixth amendments and is not expressly guaranteed in the US Constitution. Your fourth amendment rights have generally been interpretated to mean your home, the articles on your person, and, to a lesser extent, your vehicle. Even in these cases, a "Terry standard" is occasionally applied; that is, was the search "reasonably justified" at its inception. While the definition is open to judicial interpretation, most judges at the appellate levels tend to side with the individual, not the government when defining reasonable justification. If you are pulled over for speeding, for instance, and a run of your driver's license shows several convictions for drug trafficking, you might as well sit tight. It's going to be a LONG night. Similarly, if police approach your house and smell chemicals consistent with the manufacture of methamphetamines, they will probably enter, as there isn't sufficient time to get a warrant beforehand.

But communications are another matter. Even in the best of circumstances, communications have fallen into a judicial "gray area". For at least 30 years, the government has wiretapped phones when there's a suspicion of gambling activity, or of drug trafficking. They have usually used a secret court to obtain a warrant, but some of their arrests have been upheld without a warrant. To put it simply, communication devices are not consistently upheld as one's property as far as the fourth amendment is concerned. And the Bush administration COULD make the argument that the "Terry standard" applies here, as, at least according to the information we have at present, all of the wiretaps involved calls to or from individuals with known al Qaeda links.

I don't like what President Bush did. At all. I question its constitutionality, and its legality as regards the 1978 wiretapping law. I'd like nothing more than to see him impeached, tried and convicted, IF, and ONLY if, he violated the laws of the land. Also if and only if members of Congress and the media who were aware of these actions are tried as co-conspirators. Bush's should NOt be the only head that rolls.

If a special prosecutor is appointed to investigate whether Bush broke the law or not, however, I believe they will need to look beyond the fourth amendment. There's simply not enough there to make a compelling case.


Comments (Page 2)
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on Dec 21, 2005
So how do we defend our nation when the enemy is within our borders... and especially if they are AmericansLink
? Treat them all as "criminals". I don't think so!!
on Dec 21, 2005
Para,

Simple. Use the tools we already have at our disposal. Using your logic, we could override the Constitution in virtually EVERY criminal investigation. We can't allow ourselves to do that.

I don't know if the law WAS violated here, but I DO believe it should be investigated. And not by journalists, either, but by an independent investigator who will let the chips fall where they may.
on Dec 21, 2005
Gideon, I understand the value of our system, more importantly have put my life on the line for it quit often. I'll even agree with you idealistically. However, decisions and actions have to be measured based on the larger picture.

When 280M population is at stake, I can justify the collateral number of errors that "might" take place. Maybe that's because I don't live in an idealistic world and view protecting JoeUser at most any cost. What I don't quite understand is stretches the subject matter out of proportion by including local CPS actions into this discussion. I can only hope you're not basing the inclusion on personal circumstances One "GWB's actions" do not equal the other, being the mind set of CPS or LE on local issues.

The governments 4700+ were terrorist investigations, and not assumptions of guilt. Something in their lives was brought to the attention of agency terrorist units. I assure you it wasn't based on loud stereo's or long grass, not even smoking it. Equating the level of those investigations to simplified acts doesn't seem worthy of your writing skills. Since you brought CPS into the equation I should include my wife's fifteen years as a highly educated LCSW and Sr Clinical Manager over several ongoing adolescent cases at an institute that's aligned with Child Protective Services on a national basis. CPS is part of her life 24/7, and I know more about operations that never happened then can be discussed.

Would GWB use his Presidential authority arbitrarily to usurp any Amendment to support down stream investigations that don't pertain to terrorism and might even infringe on honest "JoeUsers" day to day life of mowing his lawn or speeding.... I think NOT.
on Dec 21, 2005
umm, dr...

The problem is, in the alleged conversations, individuals within the United States WERE a party.


FISA does not say individuals within the United States. It says " to which a United States person is a party". Read that as an American citizen. Someone who is an alien (non-citizen) is who this was aimed at. A non-citizen may be "within" the US.
on Dec 21, 2005
Gideon, take a look at this. It is a pretty reasoned, thought out exploration of facts, laws, and relevant data ... unlike a lot of what is out there.


Link



on Dec 21, 2005
Simple. Use the tools we already have at our disposal. Using your logic, we could override the Constitution in virtually EVERY criminal investigation. We can't allow ourselves to do that.

I don't know if the law WAS violated here, but I DO believe it should be investigated. And not by journalists, either, but by an independent investigator who will let the chips fall where they may.


Actually not at all, the Constitution mandates many things for criminal investigations. I'm not arguing that anything should change when it comes to treatment of suspects and investigations of crimes.

What I am saying is that people who join up with an enemy during wartime are not criminals, they are the very "domestic" enemies that many of us have sworn to protect the Constitution against. If we are to treat every enemy who is found within our borders as a "criminal", then we offer our enemies our own U.S. Constitution as a weapon to be used against us.

I agree with you though, an investigation is warranted here. Actually it SHOULD have been called for back when Prs. Bush first announced to members of Congress... but apparently that wouldn't have fit their political agenda.

The other investigation needs to be to discover who leaked the details of an on going operation to the press. Whether the "spying" was legal or not, someone released classified information to the press, the public, and the enemy. That in itself is not only a crime, it could be a treasonous act (making it a capital crime). Someone put their petty politics over the lives of all of us.
on Dec 21, 2005
FISA does not say individuals within the United States. It says " to which a United States person is a party". Read that as an American citizen. Someone who is an alien (non-citizen) is who this was aimed at. A non-citizen may be "within" the US.


Actually, the definition of "United States person" is a U.S. citizen, OR an alien with legal residence in the U.S. If they are an illegal alien, then they are not protected. But, if they are green card holders, or work visa holders, etc., they are protected.
on Dec 21, 2005

Actually, the definition of "United States person" is a U.S. citizen, OR an alien with legal residence in the U.S. If they are an illegal alien, then they are not protected. But, if they are green card holders, or work visa holders, etc., they are protected.

Yes!  I was going to post that, but thanks for saying it!

on Dec 21, 2005

FISA does not say individuals within the United States. It says " to which a United States person is a party". Read that as an American citizen. Someone who is an alien (non-citizen) is who this was aimed at. A non-citizen may be "within" the US.


Actually, the definition of "United States person" is a U.S. citizen, OR an alien with legal residence in the U.S. If they are an illegal alien, then they are not protected. But, if they are green card holders, or work visa holders, etc., they are protected.


That may well be but I'd be willing to bet that the definition would change for an alien with legal US residence, if that person found themselves on the wrong list.
on Dec 22, 2005
I'd be willing to bet


So there's no betting ....

The statute enacted in 1978.7 authorizes a judge on the FISA court to grant an application for an order approving electronic surveillance to “obtain foreign intelligence information” if “there is probable cause to believe that . . . the target of the electronic surveillance is a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power,” and that “each of the facilities or places at which the surveillance is directed is being used, or is about to be used, by a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power.

(1) information that relates to, and if concerning a United States person is necessary to, the ability of the United States to protect against–
A) actual or potential attack or other grave hostile acts of a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power;
sabotage or international terrorism by a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power; or
C) clandestine intelligence activities by an intelligence service or network of a foreign power or by an agent of a foreign power.

The definition of an agent of a foreign power, if it pertains to a U.S. person (which is the only category relevant to this case), is closely tied to criminal activity. The term includes any person who “knowingly engages in clandestine intelligence gathering activities . . . which activities involve or may involve a violation of the criminal statutes of the United States,” or “knowingly engages in sabotage or international terrorism, or activities that are in preparation therefor.

International terrorism refers to activities that “involve violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or any State. Sabotage means activities that “involve a violation of chapter 105 of [the criminal code], or that would involve such a violation if committed against the United States. For purposes of clarity in this opinion we will refer to the crimes referred to in section 1801(a)-(e) as foreign intelligence crimes.10

More germain to the original subject matter:

Congress was concerned about the government’s use of FISA surveillance to obtain information not truly intertwined with the government’s efforts to protect against threats from foreign powers. Accordingly, the certification of purpose under section 1804(a)(7)( served to prevent the practice of targeting, for example, a foreign power for electronic surveillance when the true purpose of the surveillance is to gather information about an individual for other than foreign intelligence purposes. It is also designed to make explicit that the sole purpose of such surveillance is to secure “foreign intelligence information,” as defined, and not to obtain some other type of information.

As of 2003 - A loophole from 1978 was closed by providing that not only does it cover the person working for a foreign government, or who we can prove at that point is working for a foreign terrorist organization, it also includes the so-called lone wolf terrorist, or the individual we cannot yet prove is directly affiliated with one of these amorphous groups.
on Dec 22, 2005

To play devil's advocate here (although I still think the whole thing reeks and that Bush AND all co-conspirators should be investigated), It would be important to know that NONE of these conversations obtained without a warrant would be admissable in a criminal proceeding. Their inadmissability makes them a tool even the most authoritarian government would be loathe to employ.

on Dec 22, 2005
It would be important to know that NONE of these conversations obtained without a warrant would be admissable in a criminal proceeding.


Correct.... But the 4700+ were motivated by terrorist investigative units governed by parameters defined by FISA. So they're not treated as typical criminal proceedings, which I am gratefully thankful

In your original post you said:
IF, and ONLY if, he violated the laws of the land. Also if and only if members of Congress and the media who were aware of these actions are tried as co-conspirators.

I agree, "if" laws were broken consequences should result.

Now, in this post you appear to have assumed guilt by using the word "reeks". Did you learn something new or am I mis-reading?
the whole thing reeks and that Bush AND all co-conspirators should be investigated


on Dec 22, 2005
I agree, "if" laws were broken consequences should result.

Now, in this post you appear to have assumed guilt by using the word "reeks". Did you learn something new or am I mis-reading?


I assumed nothing. I advocate for investigation, which does NOT imply guilt! I said it "reeks" because, well, it does. If it IS legal, it doesn't cleanse the stench off of it, in my OPINION. But, as I stated in the article, "Gideon's gut" is not a respected legal standard in this country.

Remember, my opinion differs from legally established fact. My opinion is that this stinks, legally established fact will have to be determined by an objective investigation.
on Dec 22, 2005
Well stated...I have one of those guts too. Thank you.
on Dec 22, 2005
I too agree with you Gid. My gut says that something isn't right about the situation. I also have professional experience in this field, which leans me toward believing something is amiss. When I went through training for intercepting, it was made very clear that we could intercept on US citizens in two situations: 1. Never and 2. Never. At a higher level, with FISA court approval, this obviously can be circumvented, but years of training still tell me that what appears to have actually happened was a big no-no. I think, as do you, that somebody needs to look further into it to truly determine the legality of the whole thing...
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