The journey from there to here
Published on December 9, 2005 By Gideon MacLeish In Politics

It's getting frustrating.

As a Libertarian, I am always on the lookout for good talking points from the left and right. Both sides have plenty of room for criticism, and there are a lot of good talking points to be had.

But see, as so many have lamented, GOOD liberal talking points are in short supply around the internet. Most of the more intelligent liberals are more moderate than liberal, or focus their blogs on other topics. The few truly intelligent, truly dedicated liberals that remain spend far too little time blogging here, in my opinion. And there ARE some points to be made by liberals.

What we are left with all too often is ad hominem attacks and/or completely unsubstantiated rhetoric. Unfortunately, too many of the leftists we DO find on the sight are so narrow in focus that they simply don't contribute enough to a broad range of topics to be consistently interesting.

A look out over the blogosphere seems to offer little hope as well. All but the most hardened liberal would not want to be represented by the views of the Democratic Underground.

To the good liberal writers on JU (you know who you are): please, give us some more material. To the "one trick ponies": Please, broaden your choice of topics. And to the silent majority of libs: Please, don't be afraid to speak. We may disagree, but I, for one, would like to hear your voices more often.

There's a potential for this to be a truly great blog community, but as long as one view is predominantly expressed over the others, the content is lacking. I know there are some great liberal writers with content to contribute, I'd just like to see more of them.


Comments (Page 3)
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on Dec 10, 2005
theres not much debate among conservatives/rightwing nuts/hypocrites because they march in lock step.

an example of this is any vote in the house ... republicans will vote the same way ... WITHOUT thought.

these people dont stray far from the talking points which are
1) america is number one and gwb sits at gods right hand
2) your with us or against us
3) we decide who is a terrorist
4) we have NEVER done any wrong
5) we are the moral guide of the world
6) its bill clintons fault
7) did i mention clinton
8) see 6 and 7
9) refer to 8
10) 6 and 7 ... when in DOUBT 8

I vaguely recall a conversation I had with someone who blurted out
"you liberals (small note here, I am not a liberal) listen to right wing radio to get a sense of what we
are thinking ... we onthe other hand have no desire to listen to left wing radio"

I told him point blank:
if thats the case, then its because "we" are
1) NOT threatened by your ideology
2) ARE free thinkers ... willing to hear other point of views if they are RATIONAL
3) ARE not robots or mindless drowns without intellectual curiosity

He babble some idiotic talking point before adding a new one:
the WAR on christmas

MORONS
on Dec 10, 2005

MORONS

Now, see, rombios...this is part of what I'm talking about. You did raise some valid, if not slightly hyperbolic points about many conservatives, but you negated it with this single word. If you had stopped your response 6 letters shorter, I would have probably pegged you with an insightful.

on Dec 10, 2005
rombios is an odd case. Sometimes he claims to be in a south American country embittered by US intervention, and other times he talks about the US in the first person, as if he is here and a citizen. The one fact seems to be he refuses to get an account and start blogging, which makes me think maybe we already know him and the IP thing is a problem...
on Dec 10, 2005
It could be that liberals if not in essence unwanted on JU, they might at least feel they aren't taken seriously.


steven,

I don't mind saying you're one of the liberals I wish we'd see more of (the stuff of substance that you used to produce with greater quantity). While this may be your reason for not blogging here, the question I would pose to you is: why DO you blog? And why let our opinions keep you from expressing yourself? (they're rhetorical questions, really...I'm hoping you'll think about it, as this site COULD use a little more balance).
on Dec 10, 2005
theres not much debate among conservatives/rightwing nuts/hypocrites because they march in lock step.

an example of this is any vote in the house ... republicans will vote the same way ... WITHOUT thought.

these people dont stray far from the talking points which are
1) america is number one and gwb sits at gods right hand
2) your with us or against us
3) we decide who is a terrorist
4) we have NEVER done any wrong
5) we are the moral guide of the world
6) its bill clintons fault
7) did i mention clinton
8) see 6 and 7
9) refer to 8
10) 6 and 7 ... when in DOUBT 8


I am considered by most here on JU and other places, to be an "extreme" right-winger. And I'm here to tell you that you couldn't be more wrong if you tried on all 10 lines.
on Dec 10, 2005
I think the main difference between liberals and conservatives is that conservatives believe in moral absolutes, and liberals don't, for the most part. And when conservatives STATE their beliefs, they're accused of being bigoted by liberals who want affirmation for their vices.

When conservatives frustrate me, though, is when they attempt to legislate all of their moral positions. I can believe something's wrong without trying to outlaw, it, frankly.
on Dec 10, 2005
But I hope not to be arrogant enough to consider that I know everything.
Non-arguable axiom.

but you negated it with this single word.
Agreed.


And why let our opinions keep you from expressing yourself?
I don't, but I have other writing interests, but as Baker implies at election time I'll leap out of my spider web!
on Dec 10, 2005

steven,

good to know. You are missed around here.

on Dec 10, 2005
republicans will vote the same way ... WITHOUT thought.
This is the kind of thing that infuriates conservatives--lighten up. Of course, many of them are guilty of the same witless comments.

on Dec 10, 2005
"I think the main difference between liberals and conservatives is that conservatives believe in moral absolutes, and liberals don't, for the most part.


I'd have to disagree with that wholeheartedly. In almost every issue modern American liberalism imposes a subjective "truth". Whether it is environmentalism, abortion, the death penalty, war etc., you don't have many shades of grey at all, only untouchable rights and outright condemnation.

They eek by without much notice because they don't have a slab of rock or a book to cite for their morality. Their moral absolutes seem to get a pass because they make them up off the top of their heads instead of falling back on traditional values. That doesn't make them any less absolute, though.
on Dec 10, 2005

I think the main difference between liberals and conservatives is that conservatives believe in moral absolutes, and liberals don't, for the most part. And when conservatives STATE their beliefs, they're accused of being bigoted by liberals who want affirmation for their vices
Relative morality need not support "vices." The true thrust of morality is to assess whether absolutes are arbitrary or substantially relevant to daily living.
on Dec 10, 2005
>Now, see, rombios...this is part of what I'm talking about. You did raise some valid, if not slightly
>hyperbolic points about many conservatives, but you negated it with this single word. If you had
>stopped your response 6 letters shorter, I would have probably pegged you with an insightful.

Gideon ... point well taken!!!

However I have long decided to dispense with any modicum of civility where these matters are concerned.
I call like I see it ... and I see "morons" lacking in logic and thought processes
on Dec 10, 2005
>rombios is an odd case.

by odd you mean "non conformist" .. fine I accept that.

>Sometimes he claims to be in a south American country embittered by US intervention


I never claimed to be from any South American country. I did say I have friends from all over th world
have similar stories ... thats
CIA/NSA/NGO has been used to topple democratically elected governments that were viewed as socialist,
on who happened to PUT THEIR PEOPLE first before alliances with the USofA

what I have from my friends confirms the stories in Johnsons "BlowBack" ... a good read.

>and other times he talks about the US in the first person, as if he is here and a citizen.

Prove I am not?

>The one fact seems to be he refuses to get an account and start blogging

Has it ever occured to you that I have no interest lin playing this game under YOUR rules Bakestreet?
I love that you continuously raise this point ... you and Dr Guy.

That this continues to be a sore on your side ... is a source of never ending joy for me.

>which makes me think maybe we already know him and the IP thing is a problem...

Whatever dude!
I am surprised you are even bothering to respond to me ... in an earlier post (on a different subject) you said
you would never respond to anything I write on here ... youve folded like a leaf.!!!

You and Dr Guy love to censor and delete posts you dont agree with ... why should I or others bother signing
up?
Your attempts to pigeon hole me and like minded individuals are a waste of time ... I share ideas and view
points with liberals (privacy, sane foreign policy, protection from corrupt business/corporation) and with
conservatives (flat/low tax, small government, right to bear arms).

That so called "liberal" label isnt so fixed ... now is it?

I may not agree with Gideon but I respect him and his willingness to challenge ANY point he doesnt agree
with.

Nuff said!
on Dec 10, 2005

I hadn't noticed their exodus. It is fair to equate extreme left with the obnoxious extreme right; however, you leave us with the impression that there many more of the arrogant and "enlightened" academicians among the left than the holier than thou, benevolent captains of industry of the right.

That was my intent.  Because there appear to be a lot more extreme left-wingers today than extreme right wingers.  Left-wing speakers aren't being heckled off the stage enmasse.  Left-wing speakers aren't being assaulted in public.  Left-wing speakers don't have their speeches interupted by crazed right wingers.  That isn't to say it never happens but it's pretty bloody rare.

on Dec 10, 2005

I think the main difference between liberals and conservatives is that conservatives believe in moral absolutes, and liberals don't, for the most part. And when conservatives STATE their beliefs, they're accused of being bigoted by liberals who want affirmation for their vices.

When conservatives frustrate me, though, is when they attempt to legislate all of their moral positions. I can believe something's wrong without trying to outlaw, it, frankly.

I disagree here on many fronts.  First, both sides tend to think that there are moral absolutes. They just choose what those moral absolutes are differently.  Left-wing orthodoxy strikes me as dogmatically religious as right-wing Christian fundamentalists.

And while it is annoying when right-wingers try to push their beliefs on us in the form of law, at least they're using the democratic mechanism.  Left-wingers, by contrast, tend to try to use the courts which are not answerable to the people. 

For example, I'm pro-choice.  But the decision whether abortion should be legal or not should be in the hands of elected officials, not unelected judges.

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