The journey from there to here

As the push for gay marriage continues in this country, I find it odd that most of the proponents have not realized what the left MUST do if it wishes to have gay marriage legal and acceptable for its citizens. They MUST leave the left.

You see, in the best way I can describe it in my way of thinking, the left "done f*&^ed up". And it's not a recent thing.

I won't go back as far as the Scopes Trial illustrated the left's war against the right, because, truth be told, most Christians are over it. Most Christians, if asked honestly, accept evolution on some level as the theory has been more widely examined and observed.

But over the last 35-40 years, the left has given no quarter to the Christian right. When they obtained a key court victory banning prayer in schools, it wasn't enough. When they had public nativity scenes removed, it wasn't enough. When they had displays featuring the ten commandments removed from public property, it wasn't enough (never mind that, if current SCOTUS opinion holds, most state capitols, and indeed, the Supreme Court building itself, will need to spend millions removing priceless works of art because of their religious nature while still maintaining the artistic integrity of the buildings themselves). As many of my liberal atheist friends make it abundantly clear, it will not be enough until any public display of faith is treated with the same horror as an artist's depiction of a rape scene on the side of a car.

The problem with this is, like it or not, the majority of Americans are Christian or practice some sort of judeo-Christian faith, even if it is a bastardized form, and the idea of stifling their expression is increasingly appalling. They lack the power and clout to fight the infringement of their liberties to the highest court in the land, and they strike back any way they can.

And the gay community has given them a hell of a target. By making their cause a "leftist" cause (rather than a "liberty" cause, a far more appropriate form), they have put themselves in the position to be the target of nearly 40 years of anger and backlash from the conservative Christian community that has a right to feel offended (the first amendment does protect freedom of religion as well). And just as the left has given no quarter to the right, the right will not give quarter to a leftist cause either.

Whether you agree or disagree with the religious right in this country, our freedom of speech and freedom of religion are concepts that are very near and very dear to our constitution. And we have the same right to freedom to live our lives as we see fit as do any other group within this country. The actions by some of my colleagues within the religious right are not actions I would have chosen, but they ARE actions I support, even as I encourage otherwise in the light of the innumerable words of Christ teaching a better way. If the gay marriage advocates wish the conservative community to see their point of view, they need to remove themselves from the political left that has determined to wage war against Christianity at any cost. Otherwise, they will always be the enemy.


Comments
on Jun 30, 2005

OT:  I have seen a gradual change in you and many others on the left, just nto the extreme left.  As the left's leadership becomes more radical, the center left are being driven farther and farther away from the goals of the leadership.  Many here at JU cannot stand Bush, yet they run hard and fast away from the likes of dean and Durbin.

You are of course correct.  But in the last couple of days, I have seen a handful of the left member of JU sounding more like conservatives than liberals.

on Jul 05, 2005
If the gay marriage advocates wish the conservative community to see their point of view, they need to remove themselves from the political left that has determined to wage war against Christianity at any cost. Otherwise, they will always be the enemy.


I can't make any sense of this at all. There are, of course, 'gay marriage advocates' on the Left but there are also plenty on the Right (see under 'Log Cabin Republicans'). Gay marriage is not primarily a left/right issue. Nevertheless, a lot of gay marriage advocates have understandably drawn the conclusion that the Left is currently far more sympathetic to their cause than the Right. Don't forget, long before (sections of) the Left began to "wage war on Christianity", Christianity was waging war on the gay community - and not by 'key court victories', but with fire, the stake and the hangman's rope. That won't be forgotten (or forgiven) quickly.

The idea that the hardcore 'christian' Right would be perfectly happy to accept gay marriage, if only it weren't a 'leftist' issue is palpably untrue. This 'christian' Right opposes gay marriage because it is an 'abomination' according to their theology and they would oppose it from whatever political wing it came. The idea that they are simply targetting the issue of gay marriage as 'payback time' for secularist assaults on their religion doesn't hold water.

In fact I am more and more convinced that gay marriage will eventually be accepted in the US as it is in Canada and an increasing number of European countries. Do I think society will take a sharp turn to the left? Unlikely. That society will become more accepting of homosexual lifestyles? Possible, but that's not the reason.

No, what will eventually win the day is the conservative case for gay marriage. Since the decriminalisation of homosexual activity in most western countries, a lot of gay men, (in particular) have been behaving like kids in a candy store. Free of legal shackles, and without any societal models of appropriate behaviour to draw on, life has become one long party for this section of the community.

At the same time, we have a movement towards more permissiveness from many heterosexuals (marrying later, or not at all; widespread infidelity and lack of commitment) meeting a movement towards commitment and responsibility from sections of the gay community who have 'been there, done that' and found the permissive road somewhat unfulfilling and empty. Just to make the point really obvious (I'm astonished so few can see it), the movement for gay marriage is a profoundly conservative movement, seeking to strengthen the ideals of fidelity, personal responsibility, commitment and - yes! - family values, at a time when a lot of heterosexuals are abandoning them.

Of course the hardcore Religious Right will continue to believe that Jesus can make all gays straight, but more thoughtful conservatives - and less fundamentalist Christians - have already decided that sober responsible married gay couples are the way to go: unexpected allies in the fight for the values of personal responsibility, fidelity and commitment.
on Jul 05, 2005

chak,

You missed my point entirely. Conservative Christians (myself included) will likely never accept gay marriage among their ranks. Frankly, the concept of religious freedom grants us the right to make that decision within our own private institutions, and that is how it should be.

But in the larger forum of CIVIL gay marriages condoned by the state, the issue really falls in the domain of "MYOB". Again, on a fundamental level, most of my contemporaries essentially agree with me. But because the gay rights community has INSISTED on making this a "left/right" issue, it winds up being the basis for several constitutional amendments banning the issue that have been founded by well intentioned individuals who are trying desperately to fight back against what they perceive to be an invasion of THEIR rights and beliefs system.

It is sad that the American left has not learned the lessons only recently shown in Afghanistan. When the populace grew tired of the secularization of their government, they fought back, and hard. The result? The Taliban.

My issue was, and remains, that gay marriage isn't a left/right issue, but is a liberty issue. Odd that in your insistence to "sell" the left, you miss that point.

on Jul 05, 2005
Indeed homosexuality is not left or right; it is a matter of degrees in the judgmental prowess of homophobia.
on Jul 05, 2005
You missed my point entirely.


And I think you missed mine. Just where do I '"sell" the left'? Do you automatically assume I must be a leftist because I disagree with you? LOL Are you "selling" the right? Or haven't we already agreed it "isn't a left/right issue"?

Churches have every right to refuse gay marriage. Whether I agree with that or not (in fact I don't care one way or the other) they should enjoy the freedom to make their own rules for their own members. The point is, if you don't like what a church does, you can always leave and join another one. Not so with society at large, and hence the case for civil gay marriages. No disagreement with you so far.

In fact in the UK some churches, will perform same sex blessings (including recently the Methodists), so it's NOT a christian versus secular issue, as you imply: there are sincere christians on both sides of the argument. This is an important point. It's just that in the US you have some crazy little culture war going on in which the far left is gunning for the born again christians while many totally irreligious conservatives are opportunisticly lining up with the fundamentalist churches.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but the constitutional amendments you refer to are about banning all gay marriage, civil as well as religious aren't they? So are you saying that your 'contemporaries' actually agree with civil gay marriage [a MYOB issue], but are passing amendments to ban it anyway because they are "desperately fight[ing] back against what they perceive to be an invasion of THEIR rights and beliefs system" by the advance of secularists 'backed by the Left'? To come back full circle, I can't make any sense of this at all.
on Jul 05, 2005
The main problem in the gay marriage debate, as in the abortion debate, is either extreme tries to make it a religious issue, when in reality most people are lukewar religiously and still have strong feelings one way or the other.

As I have said in other discussions, many traditionally secular and non-Christian societies also have problems with gay marriage and homosexuality in general. When you make this about the "utlra conservative Christians", you ignore the fact that TOO MANY PEOPLE voted in the states that went against, and even for, gay marriage for its opposition to simply be fundamentalists.

You can address the problems of the ultra-religious until you are blue in the face, and at most you are defeating only a small slice of the opposition. In reality, the meat of the opposition to gay marriage is in Joe Q. Public's mind, Mr. & Ms. Ordinary, not the cultists and fundamentalists.
on Jul 05, 2005
The main problem in the gay marriage debate, as in the abortion debate, is either extreme tries to make it a religious issue, when in reality most people are lukewar religiously and still have strong feelings one way or the other.


I think you're on to something with that. Adrian, who you know is obviously not religious, bordering on anti-religion, is very much opposed to gay marriage and homosexuality.

He says it's wrong. I ask him, "Why is it wrong?" "It's morally wrong." "Based on what? Where do your morals come from?" "Me. I just know it's wrong." "Well, what makes your morals right and other peoples' wrong if it's just based on your innate sensibilities?" And around it goes... But he can't be convinced otherwise even though he rejects morality through religion.
on Jul 05, 2005
In reality, the meat of the opposition to gay marriage is in Joe Q. Public's mind, Mr. & Ms. Ordinary, not the cultists and fundamentalists.


This is true - and a very good point. But see below:

"Based on what? Where do your morals come from?"


An excellent question. Very often they derive from our 2,000 year-old religious heritage. That's a lot of heritage, and I am never surprised to find 'anti-religious' (or religiously lukewarm) westerners with traditional 'christian' morals.

"Me. I just know it's wrong."


That's not a thought, it's an emotion, and a useful reminder when we 'debate' this issue that it's not simply a rational discussion. It may be possible to 'win' the argument at a rational level and still leave people unconvinced because they still 'feel' that it's wrong. The Left has always been handicapped by overestimating the 'rationality' of human beings - we are actually far more complex than that. The philosopher David Hume expressed it thus, '"reason is, and ought only to be, the slave of the passions".

BTW, does any one actually contend my argument that it is the conservatives who will win the day for gay marriage?
on Jul 05, 2005
BTW, does any one actually contend my argument that it is the conservatives who will win the day for gay marriage?


--Not sure, with the "mass" media publicity gay marriage,etc... is getting...i think there is a subtle push to accept it...


--My opinion is; I don't care, if it is wrong morally and that those people will face trouble in the afterlife.....ooops, to bad for them, i deal with life...whatever comes up next i deal with, got a flat tire, i get it inflated.....its too much of a pain in my ass to worry about something that is not affecting me...
on Jul 06, 2005
"Based on what? Where do your morals come from?"


An excellent question. Very often they derive from our 2,000 year-old religious heritage. That's a lot of heritage, and I am never surprised to find 'anti-religious' (or religiously lukewarm) westerners with traditional 'christian' morals.

"Me. I just know it's wrong."


That's not a thought, it's an emotion, and a useful reminder when we 'debate' this issue that it's not simply a rational discussion. It may be possible to 'win' the argument at a rational level and still leave people unconvinced because they still 'feel' that it's wrong. The Left has always been handicapped by overestimating the 'rationality' of human beings - we are actually far more complex than that. The philosopher David Hume expressed it thus, '"reason is, and ought only to be, the slave of the passions".

BTW, does any one actually contend my argument that it is the conservatives who will win the day for gay marriage?


Exactly what difference does it make "where" his morals come from? You don't have to be religous to have morals. And saying it's just wrong to him is NOT an emotion! It's an "opinion"! The religous right will ALWAYS be their enemy. Any time you bring religon to bear on this question, it'll be shot down. Can you name "one" religon that accepts homosexuality? And I mean a REAL religon, not scientologists or their like.
on Jul 06, 2005

So are you saying that your 'contemporaries' actually agree with civil gay marriage [a MYOB issue], but are passing amendments to ban it anyway because they are "desperately fight[ing] back against what they perceive to be an invasion of THEIR rights and beliefs system" by the advance of secularists 'backed by the Left'? To come back full circle, I can't make any sense of this at all.

chak,

It doesn't make sense to me either...but it IS a fact. Many conservative Christians are very bitter with what they perceive to be a continual, endless attack on their liberties (and which has, for many in the left, actually BEEN a continual, endless attack on their liberties), that they will automatically fight against anything associated with the left. Gay rights groups have strongly lobbied for Democrat candidates (even though, ironically, few Democrats have proposed serious legislation favoring gay marriage), and deliberately distanced themselves from the right.

on Jul 06, 2005
"Gay rights groups have strongly lobbied for Democrat candidates (even though, ironically, few Democrats have proposed serious legislation favoring gay marriage), and deliberately distanced themselves from the right."


Not to mention villifying gay Conservatives in the same way that black organizations tend to portray black Republicans as "uncle tom"s.

We hear a lot from the left about how no one issue should guide a voter, but apparently you aren't allowed to be a fiscal conservative and gay at the same time, unless you keep your conservatism in the closet. In the same way, they mark all pro-life, or anti-gay marriage people as religious extremists, when in reality there aren't enough religious extremists to win elections.
on Jul 06, 2005
And saying it's just wrong to him is NOT an emotion! It's an "opinion"!

Why can't it both? Your own opinions come wrapped in some pretty fierce emotions, and we've learnt to love you for it!

It doesn't make sense to me either...but it IS a fact

Thanks for this. I can see where you're coming from now.

Gay rights groups have strongly lobbied for Democrat candidates...

In the UK there used to be a similar relationship with the Labour Party. What changed that was when the Conservatives (following British public opinion) became more 'gay-friendly'. So, your original title could be turned on its head: "Want gay votes? Leave the homophobia!"

...when in reality there aren't enough religious extremists to win elections.

There aren't really enough of anything to win elections. And thus are forged some strange and unlikely alliances...

BTW, does any one actually contend my argument that it is the conservatives who will win the day for gay marriage?

And interestingly no-one has so far.
on Jul 07, 2005

And saying it's just wrong to him is NOT an emotion! It's an "opinion"!

Why can't it both? Your own opinions come wrapped in some pretty fierce emotions, and we've learnt to love you for it!


I guess it could be. But then your opinion didn't include that option did it?