The journey from there to here

I truly weep for the future of America.

As I look at the responses to my various articles on CPS abuses, the VAST MAJORITY of replies indicate that, the joeuser community, at least, has contempt for the guarantees of the constitution.

Who cares that we have a constitutional right to confront our accuser? If you can gather information through anonymous tips, that's all you need to bust down doors and strip a mother's children from her breast! Who cares about due process? A mere allegation of abuse or neglect should be enough to remove a child from a parent until or unless the parent can substantially prove their innocence? The legal standard of innocent until proven guilty? Well, of course, if you're a celebrity, we're supposed to remember that, but if you're an innocent victim of government overreach, well, kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.

Never mind that, of the 500,000 children in foster care, only 18% of the parents will even be charged with abuse or neglect. Only 3% will be convicted. That means over 400,000 children in the system whose parents have not been charged with any crime...but who have to go to bed weeping every night because their children are beyond their reach. Only 44% of those children will see their birth parents again beyond the confines of a sterile room in a government office building. But we don't care.

We watched as the government stormed Waco, and, it was later discovered, torched the compound and accused David Koresh of burning his own people. We watched the lawsuit of Randy Weaver, whose wife and son were shot in cold blood by government agents at Ruby Ridge. And we watch as the government abuses the Amber Alert system to strip a child from her parents simply because the parents wanted another medical opinion.

There are those who dismiss my fears of the US becoming a police state as unreasonably paranoid. But I have 400,000 plus reasons to believe it is. And the sad truth is, most Americans don't CARE about their rights being violated.

If we allow the government to treat the Constitution as irrelevant, we all lose. For, you see, whether you agree or disagree with its protection, it is regardless the supreme law of the land until such time as it is replaced as such (a time I fear is fast arriving). If you allow the government to treat its protections as suspect, you allow a government that has no respect for the rule of law in any context, and can trample the rights of ANY citizen, without just cause. The rights of each American citizen as provided by the Constitution are interdependent; if you allow one to be jeopardized, you seriously endanger them all. Allow unreasonable gun control laws? Say goodbye to your free speech rights; they're equally jeopardized. Allow a child to be removed from their parents without due process? Well, prepare for the state to raise your children; that IS where we're headed. Allow the state to dictate terms of involuntary servitude? Then we might as well revert to slavery; the 13th amendment applies as much to whites as blacks.

I write because it's my opinion, but in the case of my CPS articles, I hope to convince people of the wrongness of the government's actions. I have failed miserably in that regard, it seems, as the responses run about 4 to 1 in favor of violating the Constitution "for the benefit of the child". But let me ask you; when the "child" steers his bicycle into a Mack truck at the age of 19 to remove themselves from the Hell they've known all their life, how can you tell me what the government did was for their own good?


Comments (Page 1)
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on Jun 14, 2005
Personally, I've been waiting to see toilet paper printed with the Constitution on it appear on store shelves. Shouldn't be too long.
on Jun 14, 2005
Mason,

I wanted to make TP with the first amendment on it and call it "Republican Toilet paper"; then, to be afair and biased, make TP with the second amendment and call it "Democrat toilet paper".
on Jun 14, 2005
We watched as the government stormed Waco, and, it was later discovered, torched the compound and accused David Koresh of burning his own people.


--That event really pissed me off...

If we allow the government to treat the Constitution as irrelevant


--Its not just the government, do you realize how many highschoolers alone do not understand or even know just one amendment from the constitution....very fewif we as americans let our children become ignorant of what america was founded on, then we are to blame...period.

After all, we don't blame the people who work for CPS


--BULLSHIT, if they had any gage of what was wrong and right, they would realize that the CPS has overstepped its authority too many times, and therefore destroying families (i know 4 families, in where the parents were accused,never proven guilty, and the minimum they had to wait was a year and a half, one of the others had to wait five years...


I wanted to make TP with the first amendment on it and call it "Republican Toilet paper"; then, to be afair and biased, make TP with the second amendment and call it "Democrat toilet paper".


--What the hell? Don't bash all republicans, sure they have their faults (as all politicans do) i've been noticing that the demi's on here say there for rights, but then when we get to talking about religion they say it is not right to have christians be able to have prayers in publica functions,even when they are religion related,thats if they are there...
on Jun 14, 2005

Don't bash all republicans, sure they have their faults

I'll bash republicans when "small government" Republicans refuse to stand up against big government tactics such as No Child Left Behind, or the US Patriot Act, and fiscal conservative Republicans refuse to stand up against a burgeoning national debt that spends over $8500 per man woman and child for an ANNUAL budget. Republicans are as much to blame for this mess as the Dems.

on Jun 14, 2005
I'll bash republicans when "small government" Republicans refuse to stand up against big government tactics such as No Child Left Behind, or the US Patriot Act, and fiscal conservative Republicans refuse to stand up against a burgeoning national debt that spends over $8500 per man woman and child for an ANNUAL budget. Republicans are as much to blame for this mess as the Dems.


--Democrats are to blame as well, our problems haven't started recently, what about the previous congress's and presidents,hmmmm,sure, bush's plans to change these things are not working, but the way you bashed them,it made it sound as if it was ALL of the republicans faults...
on Jun 14, 2005

--Democrats are to blame as well, our problems haven't started recently, what about the previous congress's and presidents,hmmmm,sure, bush's plans to change these things are not working, but the way you bashed them,it made it sound as if it was ALL of the republicans faults...

Lucas,

Ironically enough, many of JU's lefties accuse me of exclusively bashing the left. Perhaps if you read a greater selection of my work, you'd realize I bash BOTH sides...and, in fact, FAR more of my articles have been dedicated against the left than against the right.

I am a Libertarian and believe BOTH sides are flawed, and have never hesitated to say so.

on Jun 14, 2005
As one who stands accused by you as thinking the Constitution is irrelevant, I merely think you consider anything that doesn't back your Libertarian (and sometimes teetering on Anarchist) views to be Unconstitutional.

In the case where you did accuse me (anonymous reporting to CPS), I merely pointed out that reporting to CPS often puts the life and safety of the person reporting in danger, there needs to be some level of protection. Of course if the case goes to court then the identity of the witness (the one who reported it in the first place) would need be revealled if the case couldn't be made without the person who started the ball rolling taking the stand.

You seem to be taking your disgust for CPS to the same extreme the pro CPS side take their zeal for "protecting the child" at all costs. CPS (and their supporters) see the rights of the parents as a stumbling block to their goal of protecting the child from abuse and neglect from their parents. In their world, parents often become the enemy to safety and security of children and they are the only hope for kids. Well, in some cases they are right, some parents will and do abuse and neglect their kids to the point that the only way to protect the kids is for the government to step in. However, there is no reason to think that, just because some parents are like that, all parents should be suspected of being such, until they have proven themselves "worthy" to keep their kids.

You seem just as quick to accuse everyone who supports the purpose of CPS, but not the actions of too many who have taken their mandate to the extreme. You then go off on those of us who write arguments against your zealous hatred as being "against the Constitution". Sad.

Guess what, there are times when parents' actions against their kids warrants their rights as parents to be revoked. If families would take this responsibility themselves, government would never have to. However, few families are willing to take the steps necessary to protect kids from abusive or neglectful parents. How many times should a daughter or son be molested by their parents before it is "enough"? How many ambulance calls to a home because little Johnny "fell into a hot bathtub" before he's fallen "enough" times? How many obvious signs should a health care professional note before you would deem it "enough" to remove the kids from the abusive home?

You forget that there is a purpose for government. That purpose is to protect the rights of the citizens. To me, you are so adamant about personal freedom being the right of the people that you forget that without the government's hand in protecting that freedom all there is left is anarchy.

For freedom to exist there must be a 3 way agreement. The individual, society and government must all work together in respecting individual rights. It is a matter of balance of the three. If either of the three forget their role in protecting freedom, it is up to the other two to remind the errant one of their infringments.
on Jun 14, 2005
You seem to be taking your disgust for CPS to the same extreme the pro CPS side take their zeal for "protecting the child" at all costs. CPS (and their supporters) see the rights of the parents as a stumbling block to their goal of protecting the child from abuse and neglect from their parents. In their world, parents often become the enemy to safety and security of children and they are the only hope for kids. Well, in some cases they are right, some parents will and do abuse and neglect their kids to the point that the only way to protect the kids is for the government to step in. However, there is no reason to think that, just because some parents are like that, all parents should be suspected of being such, until they have proven themselves "worthy" to keep their kids


--I disagree with you on that, what could be defined as "abuse" by one could be discipline by another,example, i was spanked,etc... when i did something wrong, someone who doesn't agree with that might feel i was being abused, then they call CPS, then CPS comes and takes me away cause i was being "abused"....you see...

How many obvious signs should a health care professional note before you would deem it "enough" to remove the kids from the abusive home


--What if, lets say, the parents of a child (or children) have never,ever, abused the child, but due to circumstances their economic situation is dismal...they can't afford HC, and CPS see's this and takes the child away (this has happend before btw...) How would you view that?


Lucas,
Ironically enough, many of JU's lefties accuse me of exclusively bashing the left. Perhaps if you read a greater selection of my work, you'd realize I bash BOTH sides...and, in fact, FAR more of my articles have been dedicated against the left than against the right.
I am a Libertarian and believe BOTH sides are flawed, and have never hesitated to say so.


--Hmmm, i apologize for being a bit pushy...ironically, one of my cousins is libertarian...
on Jun 14, 2005
--I disagree with you on that, what could be defined as "abuse" by one could be discipline by another,example, i was spanked,etc... when i did something wrong, someone who doesn't agree with that might feel i was being abused, then they call CPS, then CPS comes and takes me away cause i was being "abused"....you see...


I understand, Lucas and I even agree that some people take the word "abuse" and well.. abuse it. CPS can be as much of an abuser of children as any parent. It's about balance. Balance between the individual (in this case the parents and children), society and the government. If parent's rights are too strictly respected, truly abused and neglected kids go unprotected. If the government (CPS type departments) get's too powerful, parents and children get abused by the system, in the name of "protection". If society becomes too powerful, then the same thing happens also.

Rights are a product of Individuals, Society and Government working together to ensure rights are protected. Working against each other can only lead to the erosion of rights. As we have seen.
on Jun 14, 2005
#10 by ParaTed2k


--Exactly...
on Jun 15, 2005

In the case where you did accuse me (anonymous reporting to CPS), I merely pointed out that reporting to CPS often puts the life and safety of the person reporting in danger, there needs to be some level of protection. Of course if the case goes to court then the identity of the witness (the one who reported it in the first place) would need be revealled if the case couldn't be made without the person who started the ball rolling taking the stand.

But it's not, see, that's my point. Parents accused of child abuse or neglect have their children stripped away without due process. Only 18% of all child removals result in criminal prosecution, only 3% of all child removal cases result in conviction.

Ted Bundy had a right to face his accusers. So did John Wayne Gacy, and other serial killers. For you to protest that a parent who has been convicted of NOTHING does not have that right is appalling.

As for my disgust for CPS, yes, I take it as seriously as their zeal. Why? Because NOTHING IS BEING DONE TO PROTECT THE RIGHTS OF PARENTS WHO HAVE TO LIVE IN FEAR OF MALICIOUS RELATIVES. The vast majority of "anonymous" CPS calls are made by the noncustodial parent in a divorce case; it's a pretty effective way to make a paper trail to remove one's children from their ex-spouse.

When a parent does not even have the rights of a serial killer in the system, when 97% of all child removals are from homes where the parents have not been convicted of anything, while only 44% of all child removals have reunification with the family as a goal, there's something seriously wrong. And when those child removals are performed in a manner expressly prohibited by the Constitution, there's something MORE wrong. And when 80% of respondents feel that such blatant constitutional violations are acceptable, we're in danger of losing any Constitutional rights that remain. I have documented my case pretty thoroughly for a blog site, so I can't be accused of not doing my homework here, Para.

My objection stands.

on Jun 15, 2005
Gideon--I think that there has been a confusion of two issues: anonymous reporting and due process. You can be afforded due process without the need for the original reporter of the crime to be revealed. Of course, the burden on the State will be greater--having to present the case without the orignal witness, but it is still doable.

I firmly believe, as I stated in the previous thread, that you can preserve anonymous reporting and also provide those accused with due process.

As I've stated before, in these types of cases, the accuser becomes the State and therefore the right to face your accuser has not been eliminated.
on Jun 15, 2005

The text of the 6th amendment:

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

I highlighted the three most egregious breaches, but the right to be confronted WITH THE WITNESSES is expressly clear here.

Given that the anonymous CPS reporting is routinely used as a form of harrassment of innocent parents, I DO NOT agree that it should continue. Nor, frankly, would you, had the loss of your child without due process been threatened.

I will restate that parents accused of abuse or neglect should certainly have rights at least equal to that of serial killers. They are accused, convicted, and sentenced, without due process. And that should concern ALL of us.

on Jun 15, 2005
Gideon, you are chosing to read what you'd like in my response. I clearly stated that I was in favor of due process and then you say:

Nor, frankly, would you, had the loss of your child without due process been threatened.


I will state, once again, that I FIRMLY believe that the issue here is lack of due process, not anonymous reporting. The state can be tipped off that abuse is occuring by an anonymous reporter--but it still needs to make its case (with out the evidence provided by the anonymous reporter is they refuse to be identified).

Clearly, if the witness chooses to not be identified, the state will not be allowed to enter any of their comments/evidences into finding. Everything that comes from the tipster will be inadmissible--however, there is still the important fact that they turned the police/investigators onto a potential child abuser. Yes, the state will have a hard time making a case without the original witness--but it can be done.


You state that parents accused of abuse should have the same rights as a serial killer--and I completely agree--but I don't see you out there pushing to have the FBI and police tip lines on serial killers shut down. The police work off of tips--but they still have to build a case. First, I don't believe that you could eliminate people calling in anonymous tips to law enforcement, but second, I really don't understand why you would want to.



Like Parated, it bothers me that you have painted me/us as anti-Constitution, when in fact, I have never advocated anything that goes against the Constitution.
on Jun 16, 2005
You state that parents accused of abuse should have the same rights as a serial killer--and I completely agree--but I don't see you out there pushing to have the FBI and police tip lines on serial killers shut down.


No, because the police can't pursue a warrant without pretty solid evidence, and they certainly can't convict a serial killer on an "anonymous tip". They can, and do, do this, ROUTINELY in the United States.

If the tip is completely anonymous, all it can do is point the police in the right direction. That's all. NOTHING gathered from that tip is admissable.

As for the anonymity of CPS reporting, it falls on an entirely different scale. Because parents are considered guilty until proven innocent in the CPS system, an anonymous call can, and often does, make a person's life a living hell...for life. And in the local case I cited, it gives a person a weapon of fear as control because people are well aware that if you cross this person and you have children, you WILL see a CPS caseworker, plain and simple. In short, this person is an abuser PROTECTED by the system. And that needs to end. And the fact is, there are MANY others like him.

Frankly, when a whopping 97% of the parents in child removal cases are legally innocent is not necessarily morally so, the numbers are unacceptable. This means nearly a HALF MILLION children and their parents must suffer the trauma of the child's removal for nothing except a spurious report. I reject any attempt to infer that there is ANYTHING right with such a system. If it was found, for instance, that only 18% of the people arrested by the LAPD were ever criminally charged, and only 3% were ever convicted, I assure you every civil rights lawyer in the country would be lined up on LA's streets demanding the system be changed. And they would be right.

In another article, I stated my concerns when our law enforcement officials don't respect the rule of law. Those concerns remain.
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