The journey from there to here

Sunday evening, the local Baptist church started its Vacation Bible School program. We took the kids and registered them, and sat their for their opening devotional bit.

After a prayer, they had the kids say the pledge of allegiance. No huge problem there; I've already taught my kids our  stance on it (they stand and cover their heart, but they don't say it). This is an issue I won't debate; it's how we feel, and if you feel differently, I am OK with that; but we make the decisions we feel appropriate for our house.

WHat bugged me was what came next: the pledge of allegiance to the Christian flag and the pledge of allegiance to the Bible. Now I'm not the most learned scholar in the world, but most Baptists I have been around most of my life would have HUGE problems with that.

As for the pledge to the bible, of the two, it has a little more basis. The bible is, for a fundamental Christian, at least, the living, breathing Word of God. But the fact that Christ tells us not to take oaths trumps that in my theological interpretation, and the fact that idolatry is expressly prohibited (in this case, the bible is effectively made into an idol) makes it even more outrageous. But I'll concede that those points are open to interpretation, insofar as the Bible itself is concerned.

But...pledge allegiance to the CHRISTIAN FLAG? Sorry, no go. I would more readily concede a pledge to the American flag than the Christian flag; we are, after all, advised to respect our earthly authorities. But the Christian flag has no biblical basis whatsoever, and is merely the invention of theocrats, who wish to infect secular law with their theological interpretations. I won't have a part of that, at all.

It's a sad world where churches have replaced theological soundness with jingoism and meaningless litany.


Comments (Page 1)
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on Jun 07, 2005
Yes, we differ on the Pledge of Allegience (although I do respect your right and that you took the time to teach your children an acceptable alternative to actually saying the pledge).

I completely agree with you on the "Pledge to the Bible" and especially the "Pledge to the Christian Flag". I thought the point of Christianity was that we Christians (in effect) pledge our allegience to Christ Himself, not the book that contains His word, or a flag sewn in His honor?

But then it is a privately run Vacation Bible School, so, while I wouldn't keep my kids in that one, it is their right to set the agenda and requirements of their classes.
on Jun 07, 2005
Gideon: When I was a little kid my parents sent me to the Baptist VBS. When I got to a certain age (don't remember exactly how old I was) I was suddenly struck with how WRONG it felt to pledge to their flag.

A lot of my friends and their parents thought I was silly for refusing to go along with it, but after that, I never went back to their VBS.

It's interesting to me to hear that I'm not the only one who has an issue with that.
on Jun 07, 2005
This brings back memories of my school days....
Once, while my class was reciting the Pledge of Allegance to the Flag I forgot to put my hand on my heart. I think I was in the third grade then. My teacher went into a mad frenzy and accused me of being a communist! That was quite a serious accusation in the mid 50's... I was devestated.
Another time,in High School, I was asked to be in the colour guard at assembly and carry the flag. I let it accidentally touch the ground. Another uproar from the powers that be..."kiss it, Kiss it"!!! My religion forbad me to kiss any object not connected to God or the Torah so I refused to.... again the accusations...COMMUNIST...COMMUNIST!!!!
At my graduation, I was again asked to be in the colour guard and I decided to refuse! I also refused to go to the graduation ceremony lest I get called COMMUNIST again.
I wonder what they call kids today, now that communism is a thing of the past.
on Jun 07, 2005
I agree. This would be a good place for your children to see you make a stand with the church's leadership and make a well-reasoned argument. If they don't drop the requirement, you may have to remove your children. You don't want the kids learning from them anyway, if that's the kind of thing they're teaching...
on Jun 07, 2005
I personally don't care whether a person puts his hand over his heart when Poa'ing the american flag,i don't, i honor those who fought for america,etc...in my own way,2nd, i don't agree with pledging allegience...it kinda goes hand in hand with the bibles comments on idolatry...
on Jun 07, 2005
This brings back memories of my school days....
Once, while my class was reciting the Pledge of Allegance to the Flag I forgot to put my hand on my heart. I think I was in the third grade then. My teacher went into a mad frenzy and accused me of being a communist! That was quite a serious accusation in the mid 50's... I was devestated.
Another time,in High School, I was asked to be in the colour guard at assembly and carry the flag. I let it accidentally touch the ground. Another uproar from the powers that be..."kiss it, Kiss it"!!! My religion forbad me to kiss any object not connected to God or the Torah so I refused to.... again the accusations...COMMUNIST...COMMUNIST!!!!
At my graduation, I was again asked to be in the colour guard and I decided to refuse! I also refused to go to the graduation ceremony lest I get called COMMUNIST again.
I wonder what they call kids today, now that communism is a thing of the past.


TERRORIST!!! HE'S A TERRORIST!!!
on Jun 08, 2005
TERRORIST!!! HE'S A TERRORIST!!!


lol/// I guess!
on Jun 08, 2005
Oh, I won't protest it to the church, as it's not the church we regularly attend. And I won't encourage my children to protest it either. As I discovered growing up in just such a conservative community, if you stand, place your hand over your heart and say nothing, either nobody notices or they're not quick to point it out. Either way, it didn't offend them enough for them to say anything.
on Jun 08, 2005
I side with you, Gid....except on the pledging to the flag thing...but that's your call.
on Jun 08, 2005
I disagree with you. This is not theocracy and we were not meant to live on this earth forever. I see you have a problem with being selfish and you think that Christianity is a way to keep people inline following the government's rules and a way to get people to accept their hardships in life instead of improving them when you are deadly mistaken and you completely miss the point of what Christianity is about. Every one including you on this earth is a sinner and no matter what we do their is nothing we can do by ourselves as human beings to stop sinning. Even though it states in the first testament that everyone must follow the ten commandments in order to have eternal life in heaven, Christians believe that god sent his son Jesus Christ to the earth to die for our sins on a cross dieing in a very slow and painful death to sacrifice for our sins and he rose again 3 days later to tell his disciples that he prevailed and succeeded in what god had planned. He only asks us to respect others and be a witness to others in order to spread the word around the earth to people who have never heard of Jesus and having a relationship with god. That is not much to ask. Pledging an ellegiance only to your American flag is prasing an idol and will no where in life by the time your life is over and when you die you cant take your great possessions and money you were able to earn with you. You need to stop being so self centered and you need to stop rationalizing that the Bible contains a lot of false information and until you do, you will never be satisfied and happy with your life. God loves all of us even when we are not obeying him and one thing that you can not prove wrong is the book of Isiah written 600 years before Jesus was born prohesizing that Jesus would be put on a cross, spit on, tortured, and he would die on the cross to save us from our sins damming us to hell. Think about that next time you want to question christianity and its ideas or maybe you have all along been attending the wrong church and hearing fragments of the message but you can read it yourself from any bible that you can check out at a library or buy from the bookstore.
on Jun 09, 2005
Reply By: Intervarsity Christian Fellowship member(Anonymous User)


Where the hell did that come from? It doesn't seem connected to anything said in the article or the comments.

That sort of kneejerk judgementalism isn't doing anyone any good.

Think about that next time you want to question christianity


At least learn to read before you start questioning someone else's Christianity and commitment to God so you can form a relevant response. I suggest "How to Read A Book" and "How To Speak, How To Listen" both by Mortimer J. Adler.


Now back to the article...

Throughout my entire elementary school education we started each day pledging allegiance to both the American and Christian flags. I never thought anything about it nor had a problem with it. I had more of a problem with the public prayer -- another Biblical no-no.

I don't recall us every pledging allegiance to flags in high school. Hmm.

(I went to private Christian schools till college.)
on Jun 09, 2005
What is this Christian Flag of which you speak? I am not American, but I am a Christian, and have never come into contact with it. I'm quite glad actually because the artilce writer is spot on when they question pledging allegiance to anything but Christ. Although we are to hold the Bible up as God breathed word, if I were to have to choose between Jesus and the Bible I would have to choose Jesus
on Jun 09, 2005
What is this Christian Flag of which you speak?


This link should help: More info than anyone could possible want or need about "the Christian flag."

on Jun 09, 2005
I suggest "How to Read A Book" and "How To Speak, How To Listen" both by Mortimer J. Adler.


Might I also suggest "How Not to Write Run-On Sentences" and "Paragraph Structure", both by any Third Grade Teacher.

In any case Gideon, I applaud your efforts to teach your kid to think for themselves about taking an "unpopular" stance on things like this. This country definately needs more people like you and your family.

-- B
on Jun 09, 2005

I disagree with you. This is not theocracy and we were not meant to live on this earth forever. I see you have a problem with being selfish and you think that Christianity is a way to keep people inline following the government's rules and a way to get people to accept their hardships in life instead of improving them when you are deadly mistaken and you completely miss the point of what Christianity is about. Every one including you on this earth is a sinner and no matter what we do their is nothing we can do by ourselves as human beings to stop sinning. Even though it states in the first testament that everyone must follow the ten commandments in order to have eternal life in heaven, Christians believe that god sent his son Jesus Christ to the earth to die for our sins on a cross dieing in a very slow and painful death to sacrifice for our sins and he rose again 3 days later to tell his disciples that he prevailed and succeeded in what god had planned. He only asks us to respect others and be a witness to others in order to spread the word around the earth to people who have never heard of Jesus and having a relationship with god. That is not much to ask. Pledging an ellegiance only to your American flag is prasing an idol and will no where in life by the time your life is over and when you die you cant take your great possessions and money you were able to earn with you. You need to stop being so self centered and you need to stop rationalizing that the Bible contains a lot of false information and until you do, you will never be satisfied and happy with your life. God loves all of us even when we are not obeying him and one thing that you can not prove wrong is the book of Isiah written 600 years before Jesus was born prohesizing that Jesus would be put on a cross, spit on, tortured, and he would die on the cross to save us from our sins damming us to hell. Think about that next time you want to question christianity and its ideas or maybe you have all along been attending the wrong church and hearing fragments of the message but you can read it yourself from any bible that you can check out at a library or buy from the bookstore.


I was a little confused by this response. Which comment are you addressing? If it's the context of my article, I have to wonder what words within the article caused you to think I was disputing Christianity?

I said, stand firm behind the statement, that I had a problem with the three pledges, but mostly with the pledge to the Christian flag and the pledge to the Bible. If you believe my positions are wrong, please show me anywhere in the bible where you can support them.

You make some good points, I just have to wonder what you're rebutting.
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