The journey from there to here

One of the most superficially compelling arguments of Christian apologists revolves around the violent, torturous deaths of many of the apostles. The argument protests that these people would not have died for a lie.

While this argument plays upon emotions, it does not play upon reason. For, you see, if we want to see proof that people CAN and DO die for a lie, we need look no further back than September 11,  2001, when 19 evil men boarded 4 planes to go out and die for what most rational people would perceive to be a lie.

The trick in persuading people to die for a lie lies in persuading them that the lie is truth. That's all it took for Jim Jones to persuade his followers to die in Guyana, all it took for Applewhite to persuade his followers to die in the desert, all it took for Hitler to persuade his followers to die for the Third Reich. In short, not only is the "they wouldn't die for a lie" argument a fallacy, it's a potentially DEADLY fallacy, as one who is drawn to its compelling emotional appeal will be easily swayed into seeing themselves as a martyr for their religion's particular interpretation of faith.

Arguments for faith in Christianity must be more compelling than the easily disprovable emotional appeals often presented by its apologists. Opponents can and will dissect these arguments with ease, severely jeopardizing the credibility of the apologist.


Comments
on May 19, 2005
While this argument plays upon emotions, it does not play upon reason. For, you see, if we want to see proof that people CAN and DO die for a lie, we need look no further back than September 11, 2001, when 19 evil men boarded 4 planes to go out and die for what most rational people would perceive to be a lie.


Or like the Iraq war? Or am I not allowed to say that?
on May 19, 2005
Interesting post Gideon.....

Correct you are my friend. Many die for a lie and some die for the Truth.

So what is the difference...... the reward.

preacherman
on May 20, 2005
The difference is, the Apostles were actual first hand witnesses to Christ's return from the dead. There is a vast difference between belief in something one is taught, and belief in something to which one was a direct witness.

The men to which you refer suffered torture and death for refusing to recant what they themselves saw with their own eyes. Highly unlikely they would be willing to suffer such torture and death just to propogate such a lie.

Gid, I've read a lot of your stuff so I know you're intelligent enough to understand the difference. You may not believe, but that's hardly reason to attack the beliefs of others, especially with this kind of weak reasoning.

I've never understood why nonbelievers feel such a strong need to ridicule and try to denigrate the beliefs of those who do believe.
on May 20, 2005

 

Or like the Iraq war? Or am I not allowed to say that?

You're absolutely allowed to say that, latour. I'm not going to censor you for a controversial opinion.

Gid, I've read a lot of your stuff so I know you're intelligent enough to understand the difference. You may not believe, but that's hardly reason to attack the beliefs of others, especially with this kind of weak reasoning.

Mason,

You obviously haven't read ENOUGH of my stuff if you think I don't believe. I stated in two blogs previous that I am bringing out the fundamental flaws of some of these "canned" arguments used by apologists for several reasons. I haven't made all of them clear at this point in the series.

My point is that evangelists should not rely on weak arguments such as this to share their faith. There's something stronger, and that will become clear as I progress with this line of thought.

In other words, patience, young padawan.

 

on May 20, 2005

(addendum to mason): see, when I was a nonChristian, these arguments carried ZERO weight with me because I could see the fundamental flaws. I'm pointing them out so that people who want to share their faith with others do so KNOWING the flaws in some of these arguments. Too many just spout the words they've read without examining them.

Example: years ago, we would do a bible study with a friend. I was familiar with the works of J. Vernon McGee, a fundamentalist minister, and was surprised one day to hear McGee's words mentioned verbatim in the context of our study. I called him on it afterwards (in private), and he admitted that much of what he brought into studies was simply parroted from the texts of others.

Many "evangelists" read Josh McDowell and Lee Stroebel without giving a second thought to the fact that these authors, while they are intelligent men, are operating from a bias that doesn't show the weakness in their position. Showing these weaknesses STRENGTHENS the arguments of evangelists by steering them away from "pitfall" arguments that can be easily refuted.

on May 20, 2005
I think this article is very insightful, Gideon. If more Christians looked into what does and doesn't work as persuasion topics, they'd probably find a lot more converts. Some things that seem so natural to a Christian make absolutely no sense (to someone on the outside of Christianity) and are simply not compelling to the non-believer.

Excellent blog!
on May 20, 2005
You're absolutely allowed to say that, latour. I'm not going to censor you for a controversial opinion.


Hooray! You know, you libertarian types are all right

Funny how we seem to agree on social policy, yet are complete opposite on economic policy.
on May 20, 2005
You obviously haven't read ENOUGH of my stuff if you think I don't believe. I stated in two blogs previous that I am bringing out the fundamental flaws of some of these "canned" arguments used by apologists for several reasons.


Actually I understood that when reading it. I was merely presenting a rebuttal to it. In the last sentence the "you" was meant as a general term, not YOU specifically. I've seen the same argument you presented many times.

The part actually addressed to you directly was more suprise that you didn't spot the flaw in your presented reasoning.

Sorry, I should have worded it more clearly.
on May 20, 2005
Arrrrg. Blast ye double post!
on May 20, 2005
OK, understood, mason. But my point is, there really isn't a flaw in that reasoning. While I KNOW what the apostles died for, and know they didn't die for a lie, the fact is that people DO die for a lie.

I see it as very similar to the argument about homosexuals being "born that way". The gay rights groups insist that homosexuals wouldn't choose to be social pariahs, without acknowledging the fact that MANY individuals in our society DO make the choice to be social pariahs, so that argument doesn't hold water, plain and simple.

For the record, I've started to get to my point if you want to continue to follow my line of reasoning.
on May 20, 2005
Gid:
Yes people do die for a lie they have been taught and believe. There is a fundamental difference between that and to die to defend an untrue first hand account. That is the difference and the flaw in the reasoning and so it doesn't hold water plain and simple. Mixing apples and oranges.
on May 20, 2005

Mason,

Mass hypnosis has been used by false teachers for years, so your opponent can easily fall back on that for an explanation as to why the apostles would die do to an untrue firsthand account. That is, they really BELIEVED what they saw, but they were duped. This is where my arguments as to Jim Jones hold water. To a person, those people believed Jones was who he said he was.

To further my point, there are "faith healers" in the world today who dupe their followers with optical illusions and chicanery. I won't name names because I'm not here to argue the rightness or wrongness of these people in particular, but many have learned tricks from earlier "faith healers". There were just such tricksters in Christ's time, and they were pretty common. The possibility exists that they could have duped their followers, and this is why this particular argument just doesn't wash.