The journey from there to here
Published on May 18, 2005 By Gideon MacLeish In Religion

Now, I'm going to ruffle a few feathers here, but hear me out. It is my contention that an absolute position of atheism is poor science and that a scientist who holds it is operating from a preconceived bias that taints his research.

Science is, in essence, the quest for knowledge. We attempt to discover more and more about our universe through a series of observations, hypotheses, and tests. And, through the course of history, we have discovered much.

But each breakthrough discovery was the result of someone realizing there was something to be observed beyond their five senses. And so they devised instruments to observe the unobservable, measure the immeasurable. And we owe much to their research, for without it, we might never have discovered that the earth revolves around the sun, or the existence of the North and South American continents, or the atom...and we most certainly would have no clue about DNA. All of these discoveries and many others as well came about because a scientist dared challenge longheld empirical observations of others.

The metaphysical is not a nonexistent world; it is simply a world that is unobservable using our current standards of observation. We have limited capacity to observe beyond our five senses, but just because we can't observe it doesn't make it any less real. The fact is that the atheistic scientist accepts as much on faith as the fundamental Christian, or Jew, or Muslim. Carbon dating, for instance, must rely on the THEORY that carbon decay is constant in diverse climates and conditions throughout an extended period of time. Granted, it's a theory that seems to hold up, but the same EMPIRICAL evidence that the atheist demands for the existence of a god is lacking in the theory of carbon dating. The same could be said of evolution from one CLASS of animals to another; there is simply no empirical observation of a reptile giving birth to a bird. It just doesn't happen, and much of the system of the two classes of animals are different; enough so that a reasonable scientist SHOULD question the absolutism of those who claim this evolutionary pattern.

I have heard it said that the only intellectually defensible position in the area of spirituality is agnosticism. While pure atheism contradicts a truly scientific approach, so does "pure" belief in any PARTICULAR religion (again, one's bias taints the results).

The problem I have with atheism is that it is an ABSOLUTE position...and declares definitively that one can know the unknowable; that is, the existence or nonexistence of God. Atheism, then, is as much grounded in emotion as is Christianity, or any other faith. It is not in any manner objective.

Still wonder why I consider it a religion?


Comments (Page 1)
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on May 18, 2005
"there is simply no empirical observation of a reptile giving birth to a bird. It just doesn't happen"

Of course it doesn't happen.....anymore. Just as apes no longer give birth to man.

What do you think scientists should do, find a live dinosaur and see if it gives birth to a bird?

Do you not believe in the possibility of missing links?

on May 18, 2005

Of course it doesn't happen.....anymore. Just as apes no longer give birth to man.

OK, so if evolution "happened"....then stopped, what stopped it?

My point remains: you are taking much on faith. I respect that, but, frankly, ask that you respectfully defer to the faith of others as being no more baseless than your own.

on May 18, 2005
OK, so if evolution "happened"....then stopped, what stopped it?


Evolution hasn't stopped. We only use a small percentage of our brain.
on May 18, 2005

icon,

actually you yourself conceded that it stopped when you said it doesn't happen any longer. Somehow, according to your beliefs, something in the past allowed animals to give births to other animals of entirely different classes, and yet whatever it was that allowed that is no longer present now. All I'm asking is the concession that we can't rule outsome sort of divine direction in the process. Basically, that's agnosticism, not atheism.

on May 18, 2005
Icon... Gid's point is that the refusal to believe in God is just as rational and based in pure logic as actually believing in God. Both are unprovable statements, both present a very real and significant bias. Decrying scientists for being influenced by their faith is silly when we aren't willing to do the same for those who lack faith. Both sides deny the possibility they're wrong, and thus aren't objective. It's hypocritical for Athiests to claim they are the ones who aren't blinded by silly faith or religion, when they have their own form of it.
on May 18, 2005
Interesting.
on May 18, 2005

Still wonder why I consider it a religion?

I would disagree a little with that.  I think Atheism is the fear of religion.  And yes, I guess it has all the trappings of a religion.  For in going to the opposite extreme, they come back to the starting point.

As for the rest of the article, very insightful!  You have not lost your touch.

on May 18, 2005
actually you yourself conceded that it stopped when you said it doesn't happen any longer.


No, I'm saying that kind of evolution is no longer necessary. Evolution evolves.
All I'm asking is the concession that we can't rule outsome sort of divine direction in the process. Basically, that's agnosticism, not atheism.

I don't deny that, but that's not the part of your article that I was taking issue with.
on May 18, 2005

icono,

but the statement about reptiles/birds was meant, if anything, to underscore the fact that belief in that transition MUST be taken on faith. Absent the "hard" evidence, we have only faith to rely on. That's as true for the scientist as it is for the religionist.

on May 18, 2005
So when you said, "it just doesn't happen," were you referring to observation?

"If something is claimed to exist but does not impinge on man in any way whatsoever, we can safely say that it does not exist as far as human existence is concerned. This undefined mirage may still exist somewhere in the universe or another universe. However, since this alleged object or event does not manifest itself to us, it does not affect us in any way whatsoever and we must simply state that it does not exist.

Religious people argue that, although they cannot positively prove that god exists, the atheists cannot prove that god does not exist. This argument embodies several fallacies.

It is logically impossible to prove that an object or event does not exist. However, it is not only possible but is exceedingly common to prove that something does exist. If something exists, it manifests itself to us by objective evidence. It is also axiomatic in the affairs of man, and steeped in common sense that, whoever makes a claim, has to prove its validity. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."

The burden of proof is on those who claim God DOES exist.
on May 18, 2005

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."

Hmmm...interspecies evolution isn't an extraordinary claim? Matter and energy being created from nothing is not an extraordinary claim? BOTH are at LEAST as extraordinary as the concept of a being who exists outside our realm of observation being involved in the process of creation and/or evolution.

A true scientist should be objective; that's my point. Too many scientists have tossed objectivity out the window and made conclusions absent the preponderance of evidence that a definitive conclusion should require.

Atheism states the absolute that God does NOT exist. I am proposing that, to the truly objective depending on the evidence alone, the existence or nonexistence of God is, at best, inconclusive.

on May 18, 2005
sorry...INTRA species evolution (I always mess those two up).
on May 18, 2005

The burden of proof is on those who claim God DOES exist.

No, the burden of proof works both ways.  As religion is faith based, they do not HAVE to prove God exists.  Since Atheists claim, unequivocally, that he does not exist, they must then prove it, or allow the possibility that he does exist.

Making a statement of fact requires a proof.  Making a statement of Faith does not.

on May 18, 2005
The burden lies with either side equally. From where you and I are sitting right now, can we prove that Alaska exists? We can not see it or verify it, we in fact probably rely entirely on the accounts of others. Alaska could really be a college student prank done to confuse the rest of us.

God is a personal thing. One may claim God exists because they feel a personal connection that to them is incredibly real. Another may claim God does not exist because they do not feel that connection. Which is right? Which is wrong? Neither. It's an unprovable idea. But both ideas require a sort of faith. Both ideas carry with them a bias that shades everything else they see. To the one who believes, all of the Universe is an example of God's infinite power and beauty. To the non-believer, all of the Universe is an example of incredibly complex and random occurances. Since neither side can really trace things back to the point or origin, neither can prove their statement, both are simply making a statement of faith.

God is an abstract, you can't "prove" abstracts
on May 18, 2005
OK, so if evolution "happened"....then stopped, what stopped it?


It hasn't stopped. It's still happening. We tend to forget that evolution happened over MILLIONS of years...and we as human have only been around for a few thousand. In fact, if you look at the history of time, the era in which we live accounts for very, very small amount. Like a millisecond.

Evolution hasn't stopped, we just haven't been around long enough to see it happening.

As for God....like Zoomba said, belief and faith are very personal things. I can't prove that god exists, but I can't disprove it either. You can tell me that you can feel god's presence in your life, but if I can't feel it for myself I'm not going to believe it (and I'll probably tell you that what you're feeling is gas LOL).
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