The journey from there to here

I have lived in some of the poorest sections of urban America. I have lived in slums with crackwhores, gangsters, pimps, and drug dealers. I have met many welfare recipients in my lifetime. I haven't "stepped over them", I have talked to them, shared a fifth with them, and yes, in my day, scored some weed with them.

So when I speak about the problems that need to be solved, I am not COMPLETELY without knowledge in this regard.

There's a general misconception that welfare recipients need programs to teach them how to cook, and other basic life skills. Nothing could be further from the truth. For the most part, these people have not because they do not WANT to change.

A couple of years ago, our downstairs neighbors were a family that asked us to assist with groceries. We did, from time to time and as expenses allowed, and when their children were home from school, we would encourage them to walk with us to the Salvation Army for lunch (we were scraping by at the time as well).

So, it was a rather interesting surprise to us when we saw a Rent-to-own business' van parked in front of their house. Intrigued, we watched as a big screen HDTV, a 500 watt surround sound system and a computer were unloaded and brought to their house (they would later boast of their payments of "ONLY $200 a month on all of this).

Long story short, they weren't in need. They simply knew that between us, the local food banks and churches, they could beg enough money for gas, rent and utilities, and that the money they were receiving for their son's disability, plus their own assistance checks, could be used for extravagances includijng cable tv and the occasional purchase of crack.

Many of America's poor are quite intelligent, contrary to popular opinion. They have used their street smarts to scam their basic needs. I believe that, if someone can figure out how to fence their food stamp money, they can sure as hell figure out how to cook a meatloaf.

Now, I grant you there are some truly needy individuals in this country. I have seen those as well. But most of those truly needy are only indigent for a season; their resourcefulness brings them around eventually and they are able to get back on their feet. They are hurt greatly, however, by the scammers, as bleeding hearts try to cater social programs to every one of the scammers at the expense of the legitimately needy.

I conveyed a story on another blog about getting a salmon at a food bank. I had to make a few calls to learn how to cook it, but as a respondent pointed out, I DID what I had to do; I acquired the knowledge. Many of us exist on an unlevel playing field; that much is true. But those who improvise and adapt to better themselves will ALWAYS manage to "make it", no matter what life throws at them. 

The programs many are so quick to propose will not improve the standard of life in these communities; scammers will always be scammers (a hard learned lesson we learned from trying to help my mother out). And those who are determined to improve themselves will always manage to improve themselves. It's pretty simple, really. 

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Comments (Page 1)
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on Apr 30, 2005
Yes, I remember all the high end electronics we saw in patients homes. They had all that, but no baby formula, baby food and the toddler is running around on a floor with broken glass and cat poop all over it. I remember calls where the 14 year old mother of 3 called because

"my baby is hot"
"Have you given your baby any medicine"
"yea, I got these from next door" ((Mom brings out a package of baby tylonol.)) "I gave some to her, but the fever came back"
"when did you give her the last dose?"
"4 hours ago, but the fever came back"

Then we would turn the package over and have her read the directions... "...every 4 to 6 hours"

If the 14 year old mother didnt' know that tylonol only works 4-6 hours at a time, that would be one thing, but often her mother and grandmother were living there too. In some cases, it was the women playing the system (since they know that bringing a baby in with a fever wil get them "free samples" from the ER). However, there were also times when the women of the house just didn't know.

To me, your right about most of the long term (generation to generation) welfare recipients. Playing the system is as much a job for them as a full time position. However, there are many who just don't know how to do basic things. The thing of it is, the worst part of it isn't that they don't know, it's that they often just won't do what needs to be done in order to learn.
on Apr 30, 2005
The thing of it is, the worst part of it isn't that they don't know, it's that they often just won't do what needs to be done in order to learn.


Bingo! I remain firm in my contention that anyone smart enough to fence food stamps is smart enough to figure out what needs to be done to learn things.
on May 01, 2005
hmmmmm... I've been with the same poor families and never saw this type of action except for the most greedy of the lot.

I am starting to wonder if this is a location type thing. Many here at JU speak of poor people to this nature but me living with poor people, I have not seen anywhere near most people doing such acts.

One suggestion though:
Poor people, much like anyone else has pride. The will speak big of things, tell you how hey cheat the system, and tend to buy things on rent in piticular just to have something. So while you see the new sneakers, TV's and steroe system, I see a person who does not have and buys to feel big.




You know what I want to see? Someone who is a phycologist dealing with the poor speak on poor mentality, someone who did a servy of how poor spend money and so on. As many peole who pick on the poor, for the lack of a better word, poor choices in spending should or probably will come to the conclusion that they DO need their hand held.
on May 01, 2005
I grew up in this type of environment but in very rural locations. Most of the problem is that laziness trumps work ethic. One of my neighbors paid people to beat him up to stay "disabled" for his family, because it was easier to have broken arms than to work.
We were temporarily on food stamps, but my mother (single parent) had brain surgery. Even then, she only used the system for 4 months before finding a new job.
I have seen and lived in many of the situations and think that most people on welfare need to get their priorities straight and get to work.
And the excuse that "I can't afford college" there are several state and federal scholarships available to those who want to EARN a college degree and break the cycle. It was one of the few times that being poor paid off. Break the cycle.
on May 01, 2005
Did you try to join Kniwledge Net???
Knowledge Net

I am on public assistance now and I am still in the process of writing a proposal to the center where I go to to put Knowledge Net and KnowledgeNet Career Center as one of the sites that PA people go to for help in looking for jobs and becoming more employable.

We discuss stuff like this all the time in our center. I think people there would love to read what you wrote (for better or worst)

Eventually I will post my proposal on-line for other to read.

In any event, this is why I don't undertsand why so many have such a poor view on poor people. I don't know many who fit this description here you describe and the ones that do, I would suggest, that they actuall do need their hands held for many reasons.

One
Do not know hot to manage money:
Someone who knows how to sell crack actually might not have the sence to read the bottle of medication to see how often to take medication. As many on JU know, poor people have low IQ's (of which, I feel IQ mean only so much in a persons capability to live well) and

I would also suggest that poorness is a culture. When you are in it, there are things you do to 'fit in'. I specifically know of someone who does not get dressed for work when it is time to go to work so that he is not 'better than anyone else' in the project. He goes to, what I call, a HIDEOUT to change clothes for work so that he is not seen as a working person.

Also note that common sence, such as reading a medicine bottle might come from parenting. If your parents don't know (or are on drugs or alcoholics and therefor can't know) they might not actually provide the know how to care. There for what would make sense to me or you, doesn't to them. I would also suggest that reading comprehension is low in most poor families

Two
It is far easier to buy something than invest in the future. Make a special note that the tendancy for the poor to 'live now' is much higher than everyong else. Living now means that get it while you can attitude is quite high amonst those who actually get the money. They will spend it and spend it on the 'life styles of the rich and famous' items. Poor tend to believe that there is no future and those with no future tend to live for the now without investing in the future so speding habits are different. Going to school is a bad move because they will 'just fail anyway' so why try? Others might be to depressed to even think of themselves good enough to pass anyway.



This speaks to mentality of those who live in poor nieghborhoods and have been poor for generations (or even 2 generations). I personally think there are three types of poor. One who has given up and the other who wants to work for their money. The other is the one is is inbetween (IE too embarassed to be on welfare and would like to work, but has personally given up)

I think people here tend to think they know what it is to be poor, but may not actually know and can only speak from what they see from the worst of the bunch. I would also suggest that the PA (public assisnace) system is sometimes set up for you to either stay on it or keep you from never entering it. the ones ho need it and will use it to regain work status can't get in and those who would abuse it and stay on as long as they can are the ones who get it (probably because they WILL stay on it).
Just a theory... but for the 50% (guess) that abuse the system, what about those who use it for real help and are off it so fast you never see or even those who become well off?
on May 01, 2005
And then you have some people on the flip side of the coin, who are unable to work due to an injury or illness (injury in my case) and are unable to get any sort of assistance.

When I tried to get some help, the conversation went something like this:

"You'll need to provide two forms of ID, proof of residence, and proof of income."

"OK on most of that, but I don't have any income. I have been out of work because of injuries received in a car wreck in December."

"You will need to provide proof that you have no income."

"Ok, what kind of proof do I need to show I have no income."

"We normally require your most recent two pay stubs."

"OK, my most recent pay stubs would be from December."

"No, we need something more recent than that."

"I haven't worked since then because I'm recouperating from an accident."

"OK, you'll just need to bring in proof that you haven't been working."

"What about a doctor's statement?"

"No, we couldn't accept that, but if you're receiving SSI disability just bring in the letter from them."

"I'm not on SSI. I just want to be able to eat until I am healed enough to return to work."

"OK, just bring in proof of income."

Get the idea? The circular reasoning is maddening to the point of just giving up trying to reason with these people in a rational manner. I really wonder how anyone gets help at all.
on May 02, 2005
You know what I want to see? Someone who is a phycologist dealing with the poor speak on poor mentality, someone who did a servy of how poor spend money and so on. As many peole who pick on the poor, for the lack of a better word, poor choices in spending should or probably will come to the conclusion that they DO need their hand held.


Ok, I'll put the ball back in your court. Other than making excuses for them, how many "poor" hands have YOU been holding? Or is that up to the government?
on May 02, 2005
Did you eventually get the help you needed?


Nope. As for unemployment, I haven't applied to them as this requires going to their office, standing in line, all that stuff. I'm not yet physically able to do this as I can barely walk a few steps and don't have a wheelchair.

I'll manage to get by regardless, my point was with the absurd circular reasoning of the desk jockies I am amazed that people manage to get assistance at all.
on May 02, 2005

And then you have some people on the flip side of the coin, who are unable to work due to an injury or illness (injury in my case) and are unable to get any sort of assistance.

Yup, been there as well. We had to move halfway across the country when we fell through the cracks ourselves.

Personally, I'm beginning to think that, if we choose to keep programs such as welfare funded by the government, there should be a "points" system, much like social security. The nearly 20 years I had paid in without taking out should have caused me to have SOME temporary benefits available when i needed them.

But that's just my opinion.

on May 02, 2005
Oh, how I just love this subject...I'm going to tweek my old post and see if the responses still hold true....

In a nut shell, social workers perpetuate poverty. The system is in place to maintain an entire sub-economy.
on May 02, 2005

Nope. As for unemployment, I haven't applied to them as this requires going to their office, standing in line, all that stuff. I'm not yet physically able to do this as I can barely walk a few steps and don't have a wheelchair.

Shame you dont live in VA.  The ydont let you come in any longer.  Everything is either done on the INternet or via phone.  I was only out of work 2 months the last time, but that sure was nice!  I hated that standing around the first time it happened.

on May 02, 2005

In a nut shell, social workers perpetuate poverty. The system is in place to maintain an entire sub-economy.

It is called job Security.

on May 04, 2005
I have been where this is coming from and I am now on my way out. I have scammed the system to support my crack habit. I did this so I didn't have to go out and sell my body for more crack, just for a little while. I lived in a salvage yard in an old camper, so I didn't have to sleep outside. Everything went into the pipe. Getting arrested and going to jail was like a rest period for me.

Today I have three and a half years clean, I graduate with my associates degree next week. Still I have no groceries in my cupboard but I will survive, I know how and I will. I have been working at the same job for three years now, not much of a job really, housekeeping, but it gets me by while I go to school.

My point is that you are right. People will only change until they want to change. Because afterall, nothing changes if nothing changes.
on May 04, 2005
Well, I have been in this situation myself. I've pretty much always had a job, but I moved back to La and couldn't find anything so I eventually ended up at the Salvation Army. I had a cheap car, no money for gas or food. I ate at the Sally (SA), accepted money from other Sally people for gas to run them places, but finally found out about a place called Centerpoint. Its a homeless shelter type of place but its more like a halfway house homeless shelter. It was a Hotel they converted to a homeless shelter. So you get your own little room, a mini-fridge, have a community living room/kitchen/bathroom. They told me to apply for Food Stamps which I did and got them. Then they wanted me to goto school. I applied to goto a Nursing school for a Associates Degree in Nursing. Mind you I was going full-time with a super class-load to get it done in 2 yrs. The time comes for me to re-apply for food stamps and I told them I still wasn't working but was going to school to better myself. Well! They congratulated me on getting into school and then cut me off of food stamps. It seems students don't need to eat whilst attending school. I know some people would say just get a job while going to school, but I was taking like 32 hours of classes per week already. Should I then just not sleep?

I, like Gideon, supposed that my many years of being a taxpaying citizen would count FOR me in such a situation, but twas not the case. So, being pissed off at the Food Stamp people, I ended up somewhat scamming the Centerpoint people by using their credit vouchers for books to buy many more books (only the most expensive ones) than I needed just so I could turn around and sell them and have money to eat or whatever. 1 year into my Associates Degree program, Centerpoint tells me that they just looked into their bylaws and could only support me for 1 year. So, no more nursing degree. (I had a defaulted student loan from before so couldn't just get more or pell grants at the time.)

What did I end up doing? Well, the casino's ended up coming to our city and I got a job there. Now I'm a Slot Supervisor and I'm still pissed off at the Food Stamp people from before, heh. My student loan is repaid and I'm considering going back to nursing school on my own dime.

Conclusion: Poor people get screwed over trying to get help, so end up screwing over the Assistance programs themselves. I'm not proud of scamming the Centerpoint people, who afterall, were only trying to help me, but I needed to be able to eat as well as goto school. I was in school at all the times the Salvation Army and other food-giving places served their free meals.

on May 04, 2005
Nope. As for unemployment, I haven't applied to them as this requires going to their office, standing in line, all that stuff. I'm not yet physically able to do this as I can barely walk a few steps and don't have a wheelchair.


You can't do it online or by phone? They are suppossed to be... infact ARE suppossed to make privisions for those who are handicapped (whether perminant or otherwise)

As for as the person asking for proof of income and proof that you haven't been working is the doctors statement AND a letter from your job that shows you have not come in since a specific date based on doctors orders and injuries.




#9 by ParaTed2k
Monday, May 02, 2005

Ok, I'll put the ball back in your court. Other than making excuses for them, how many "poor" hands have YOU been holding? Or is that up to the government?


Not many actually. I could count only 2 people. As for the gorvenment helping what your saying is that we should have parts of society dieing from lack of medical (I'm sure the CDC would love that), no way of becoming an employeed worker (therefor increasing said goverment


So, in fact, I would say it is the job of our goverment to hold the hand of someone who needs help, just as long it is a story of 'teaching somone how to live on their own' then just giving away money. As stated in the main post here, some people don't know how to take care of themselves, invest, get and keep work or even spend money. We could, technically say, tough luck but then there is a problem:

How do you deal with the consceqiences of NOT trying to re-include the poor back into the economy? A case can be made that without this basic help, crime, desease, environment, innovation (yes, because some poor people actually use the help to become productive members of society... even start businesses), educated workers, cheap entry level labor, and so on. You will have a problem with kids being raised in this environment and continuing a cycle of ignorance, poverty, loss of hope and other issues.


My argument is this: Capitalism in its purest form can not exist, but can exist will some form of socialistic attachment. You can have captialism, but you MUST have a way for those who fall for whatever reasons (from stupidity to starting a business to getting hurt) to get back up in in the economy that needs their work power to continue. There are those who are poor and want out legitimatly, there are those who just want their hand held and stay that way, there are those who just see a good deal and plan on keeping it.

Either way you slice it, you still need social programs.

I hope I answered the question of the need of holding hands, because in a sense that what the help is; guidance to self sufficency and reliance. In fact the programs IS CALLED in NY State (probably others) Family Independance Program.


Pretty straight forward aint it????
Knowledge is power...
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