The journey from there to here
Published on September 10, 2004 By Gideon MacLeish In Politics
OK, the title necessitates a disclaimer. I don't hate America. Nor do I think any CITIZEN of the United States should hate America unless they are working towards emigrating elsewhere. Hating certain POLICIES is another story, but that's a different blog entirely.

No, what I am talking about is the world's attitude towards America.

A reference to Time magazine's recent article on Islam suggests that something like 48% of Saudis hate America (or something like that...I haven't read the article, just using this statement made by another blogger as a reference point), and that got me to thinking: Is it hating America that's the problem?

We are a country that, theoretically at least, cherishes the individual and the individual freedom of speech, thought, etc. That speech has to include dissent, or we're not sincere in our beliefs. There are many countries around the globe that dissent with what, they feel at least, is the popular sentiment among Americans (at times they have been right in their assumptions, at times wrong). And while "hate" is a strong word, there are many people to whom the word doesn't necessarily mean a violent opposition, just an intense dislike.

I have no problem with a person intensely disliking me. As long as they let me live in peace, I'm cool with it.

So much of our culture is geared around building a cooperative understanding based on our values, our likes and dislikes without a concerted effort to understand those of others. It is precisely this lack of understanding where hatred takes root, and violence too often results.

What gets me is, of those millions of Saudis who reportedly hate America, very few of those are actually willing to turn that into an active aggression against Americans, which is cool with me. I would like to teach them what I feel is a better way, but that's pretentious, and, frankly, a good part of what they feel is wrong with our culture. So I will defer to them their right to hatred.

As long as they don't act on it.

Comments
on Sep 10, 2004
As long as they let me live in peace, I'm cool with it.


That's the problem Gid. That is your attitude, but not often your governments.

So much of our culture is geared around building a cooperative understanding based on our values, our likes and dislikes without a concerted effort to understand those of others. It is precisely this lack of understanding where hatred takes root, and violence too often results.


This is a very good point, but sometimes all it needs is an aircraft carrier off your coast to change your mind about a country. What else is a military base or naval vessel supposed to tell a country's population (sometimes illiterate and without knowledge of international relations), they are instruments of war, and if not, all too easy to be perceived as instruments of war. We might know why they are there, and the sometimes very good reasons for their presence, but they might not.

I know this is only a small part of the problem, and there are some out there that think because Coke (the cola, not the other stuff ) is manufactured in the US, that's a good enough reason to kill Americans in the name of cultural purity.

Another interesting and well thought post Gid.

Marco
on Sep 10, 2004
Thanks Marco,

I know it's not my government's policy, but it SHOULD be, dammit! lol

In all seriousness, though, what better way to show a commitment to freedom of speech than to embrace foreigners who exercise their freedom to speak against us.
on Sep 10, 2004
I am not surprised that most Saudi dislike American. I have read Gallup poll on American attitude toward other counrties, and the poll data is collected for the last 50 years. Most American do not view Saudi as ally or friend. I believe only 20-30 % of American consider Saudi trustworthy, whereas 80-90% American view the British as friendy.
on Sep 10, 2004
I know this is only a small part of the problem, and there are some out there that think because Coke (the cola, not the other stuff ) is manufactured in the US, that's a good enough reason to kill Americans in the name of cultural purity.


What did they want Dr. Pepper or Pepsi instead, hell we can give them Mountain Dew if they want, heck we can give them the Royal Crown Cola Plant, but such fierce hatred against the Coca Cola. I guess this could be a sign of that the Soda Pop Wars are freakin' nigh.

Another good article Gideon, and I agree (posted this bit to make up for the sort of off-topic humor above, but stil a good article).
on Sep 10, 2004
This will probably be a really stupid point, but your article made me think, not so much about those nations opposed to America and the war on terrorism and so on, but what America was supposed to be, and how it has failed in achieving that. When you said "We are a country that, theoretically at least..." It reminded me a lot of communism (ironically). I just think that like communism- which in theory, was a noble and beautiful ideal- the theory behind America is wonderful, but like communism it made the mistake of assuming certain values in all of its people. And many of those people turned out to be essentially corrupt and power hungry, and i think the desire for things and for power took over, and so America forgot all the dreams of freedom and justice and so on became just as flawed, in practice, as communism.

America itself of course is just a name for a place on earth, its the people who give it its many attributes and flaws, people who gave it dreams, and things to stand for, people who made it a place confused and often hypocritical, and people who have made it so hated by other nations. What i love most about America is not what its become or what it has given me, but the spirit that still remains, although beaten and weakened, but still felt by those who are willing to seek it out, whether its hidden in an old city, an expanse of desert, a boggy creek, or on the beach by the ocean. America is beautiful independant of the people who inhabit it, and most of us, remember, are merely thieves of someone else's land.

There are many great things about living in America- and i remember reading somewhere that even the poorest of Americans live in relative luxury compared to what the poor of other nations live like. I think its main flaw is in how it deals with other nations. I always think of America as a teenager- still not sure what to be,confused, and trying different things on, often insecure and often self righteous,reflecting the same obsession with the material as many teenagers, and when injured, lashing out violent and unthinking. America is young, her blood still hot, and there is none of the reserve of older nations, with the years and experience of attack and war that the US simply doesn't have.

There will always be hateful and cruel people in the world, and people have been blinded by religion (if you can call it that) and acted violently because of it for longer than America has existed in her present form. I can't say how these people should be dealt with, but i think before doing so the American government should take a long hard look at itself, and think before it acts.

Sorry- big stupid rambling. This was a v. good article though- and as you can see- extrememly thought provoking!

Dyl xx
on Sep 11, 2004
Very good article Gideon.

What would your viewpoint be if those Saudis who hate America then demanded that Saudi Arabia refuses to sell oil to America? Acceptable, or should the US somehow act to protect it's economic interests?

Paul.
on Sep 11, 2004
What would your viewpoint be if those Saudis who hate America then demanded that Saudi Arabia refuses to sell oil to America? Acceptable, or should the US somehow act to protect it's economic interests?


As we have practiced embargoes against other countries for years, they have the right to practice embargoes against us. I would suggest we go elsewhere, yes, even to ANWR, for our oil supply.
on Sep 13, 2004
Hi Gideon,I,m Sieara I think your thoughts are very well said but the fact is why does the saudis hate America/Americans so badly enough to do acts ot terrorism upon my people of the u.s.a/ That has caused a worldwide terror train of spreading terror worldwide from the terrorist in the east doing acts of terror too my people in the west and al usa allies( my thoughts are whats up with that?)
on Sep 13, 2004

The love of my life has a very intelligent sister, who came to this Country from another, learned perfect English and now works for the US Government.

She is highly regarded as one of the brightest people they have in their employment, and they fought to keep her after her temporary assignment ended.

Here's the deal : She was an exchange student for years, in many different Countries. She has traveled all over the World , including coming from a
different Country, of course. When she wasn't living and being educated in one Country, she traveled to another. Everywhere from Amsterdam to New Zealand.

She says the USA is NOT the best Country to be in or live in. She lived in many communities where she was accepted and didn't feel threatened with rape or violence.
She says of all of the Countires she's lived in , Americans are the most violent, selfish , crazy and rude. But her family lives here now, part of "the dream ".

She knows that there are many Countries out there who believe in freedom and peace, and don't have the problems that we do. I suspect that she will someday move to Europe somewhere, and we will miss her.

We cling to this notion that we are the best, while everything crumbles around us. We also tend to force that image on everyone else, especially since the Bush's have
made everyone hate us. We berated France and Germany for being big boys and able to think for themselves. Same with the Phillipines.

These Countries turned out to be right, and we were wrong. Who are we to tell them when and how they will support us???

Perhaps France will call American cheese " Arrogance cheese", and American airlines " Aggressor airlines " ...
on Sep 13, 2004
She says the USA is NOT the best Country to be in or live in. She lived in many communities where she was accepted and didn't feel threatened with rape or violence.
She says of all of the Countires she's lived in , Americans are the most violent, selfish , crazy and rude. But her family lives here now, part of "the dream ".


Live,

A couple of things I have to say about this. For one, this is one person's opinion; it can hardly be considered a consensus, but it does give some insight.

For another, it represents a small part of the country. I could introduce her to many communities across America where she wouldn't feel threatened with rape or violence either. We are a large, diverse nation, and to generalize us as "violent, selfish, crazy and rude" is as bad as us making generalizations about the citizens of other countries. In short, she has made many glaring generalizations about me, despite the fact that, in all statistical likelihood, she's never met me.

Allow me to give you an illustration that I know will hit home. As you rightly struggle to gain an equal status to your relationship as that which heterosexuals enjoy, you have the support of a good number of Christians in your struggle. While there are some very vocal Christians that have, understandably, caused you hurt, it would be wrong of you to blatantly dismiss ALL Christians and disregard those who are aligned with you in your cause. That's the danger of generalizing.

Hi Gideon,I,m Sieara I think your thoughts are very well said but the fact is why does the saudis hate America/Americans so badly enough to do acts ot terrorism upon my people of the u.s.a/ That has caused a worldwide terror train of spreading terror worldwide from the terrorist in the east doing acts of terror too my people in the west and al usa allies( my thoughts are whats up with that?)


Hi Sieara, pleased to meet you and thanks for your response The truth is, many Saudis don't hate America, and even fewer act on it. There are a number of reasons why countries such as Saudi Arabia dislike America. To give you a few reasons, many don't like our country because we support Israel, still others because they feel that we're morally degenerate, and others oppose US military involvement overseas. The people that are spreading the terrorism are a minority of the Muslim community, and don't represent the intentions of all Muslims.
on Sep 13, 2004
A reference to Time magazine's recent article on Islam suggests that something like 48% of Saudis hate America (or something like that...I haven't read the article, just using this statement made by another blogger as a reference point), and that got me to thinking: Is it hating America that's the problem?


hmm.. well i hate saudi arabia and I think their government is horrible and corrupt and I think we need to end all ties with them. So there.

Now, many people are misinformed about hating america, but I agree that there are reasons why many could hate america and americans because of the government of this country under bush and how it has mistreated the rest of the world. The fact remains that having a good relationship with the rest of the world is important to us. It helps us. It is essential to having good trading relations with countries, and good diplomatic relations, and good military relations.
on Sep 14, 2004
Hate is probably a word just thrown around. Don't forget that most people in such countries do not speack english as a first language and as such are unlikely to have a plethora of words to describe their feelings towards the US. Dislike and antagonism towards, are probably closer to the truth, and often due to lack of first hand knowledge or experience. It's easy to dislike a country if people always tell you that your problems are because of that country. Proof after a while isn't required. It's easier still to dislike a country becuase you dislike their leader.

From reading articles and replies on JU however I believe that many more Americans hate Bush (and hence America) than foreigners do. As a whole Americans are so vehement in your condemnation/hate/dislike/apathy towards your candidates (both Kerry and Bush). It's almost like truely hating the opponent is the thing to do. You can't just disagree with issues, or policies anymore. And it's not just the leader, you also seem to vehemently hate the entire segment of society who support that leader. Just look at all the hilarious 'people on the left...' or 'people on the right...' articles. I'd stop worrying about others hating you and start worrying about hating yourselves.

I'm sure foreigners see this as well, and it must colour their views of Americans.

Paul.
on Sep 14, 2004
I hate Coca-Cola, Drink Dr. Pepper!!

LET THE SODA WARS BEGIN!!

MUHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
on Sep 14, 2004



Gideon.

There are many types of Christians. There are the ones who follow the teachings of Christ , meaning love and devotion and help for all - mighty and small, etc.

Then there are those who hate, kill, lie , and feel they are superior and judgemental just because they use the title.

The problem when someone is identified as Christian, it makes people wonder : which one are you.

I bought a car from a Christian. They made a big deal about how it was driven to Church and how Christian they were.
Then they repeatedly lied about the car , withheld facts, and asked me if I wanted to lie about the price paid. I didn't.

I believe in Christ. I prefer not to put labels on myself and the one that I love - because the ones that it really matters to know that I believe are : Christ and God.