Good Blog Gid - you cant really fight the numbers...

As a side note, I would also like to point out that since 28 sept 2000 to 5 may 2004 there have been 3020 Palestinians killed Link

It all points to a ridiculous amount of death on either side and your assertion that we need to work together is one I stand behind 100% Alas - I think as the educated side of the coin, moral responsibilty rests with us. Some Muslims do use the Qu'ran to their own violents ends, but we must not use the liberty of free speech to incite hatred.

BAM!!!

It's a shame there's no breakdown for sects. I remember hearing somewhere that Shi'a Islam and Wahhabism are particularly likely to be terrorist, but less so the Sunni and Southeast Asian non-denominational. If this is true, then perhaps we only need to blame the rough equivalent of Presbyterians rather than the rough equivalent of Christianity. That would narrow the focus considerably.

It's good to see though that over 2001-2003 the numbers dropped radically. The rise in 2004 might be a result of the Iraq War, but it's hard to be certain if that is a result or a cause of increased terrorism.

All in all interesting figures there Gideon.

It's a shame there's no breakdown for sects. I remember hearing somewhere that Shi'a Islam and Wahhabism are particularly likely to be terrorist, but less so the Sunni and Southeast Asian non-denominational

Yes, it is a shame. And if those statements are true (and they are consistent with what I have heard as well), then it would be even more indicting of those sects that ARE prone to violence.

Good Blog with lots of interesting information.

Couple of issues I have though once you look further into the data.

1) The definition of terrorism used is defined to sub national. Therefore it's quite acceptable for any government to bomb an ethnic minority without it being classified as terrorism. Saddam could kill hundred of thousands of kurds or shia muslims, but if any of them killed a sunni muslim in revenge, it's terrorism. Israel firing rocking in Gaza city and killing children is NOT terrorism but a revenge suicide bomber is. Not quite a fair indication of the state of terror and a major problem with western nations attempts to define terrorism. Combatant troops attacks against non combatants should be regarded as terrorism.

2) Definition of terrorism and international terrorism are clearly defined at the start of the report but then totally blurred in the results. For example, attacks in Israel by palestinians are all treated as international terrorism despite the fact that they should be treated as domestic terrorism by the definition given. This is also the case with many incidents in India, Columbia and the Philippines.

3) There is no separation between attacks against same religion and attacks against alternative religion. This is very important in defining incidents of terrorism and the responsibility for it.

4) There is no separation between attacks as part of separatist movements (normally domestic terrorism) and attacks against idealogical targets (normally international terrorism). This is especially important if the nation and separatists are different religions as it skews the results.

All in all interesting data, but raising many other questions.

Paul.

Also, im getting pretty sick of people "comparing" any critisism of Islam to past atrocities committed by Christians, or even the current number of Palestinians suffering under Israeli rule. Israelis arent blowing up American buildings full of office workers, and the Palestinians had nothing to do with 9/11 other than serve as convenient excuse

Thanks for this response, LW. It saves me some trouble on response #4.

While neither is morally justifiable, there is still a world of difference between a military attack, such as that of Israel towards Palestine and suicide bombing a shopping mall. Certainly 3 dozen suicide bombings per year necessitates some kind of response (although I tend to agree Israel's responses are often less than diplomatic and provoke more than they pacify).

I will further add that peace cannot begin until ALL sides admit to their wrongdoing.

As to the Time article, LW...I do appreciate the info, as it underscores the fact that it really is a minority of Muslims actively involved in this kind of behavior.

Gideon,
I fail to see the relevance of your comment on my reply. If you disagree with any of my comments then please let me know as oppossed to suggesting the quote answered them.

I have no issue with your comments on palestinians. I purely point out that in many of the incidents where terrorism occurs, the terrorists feel they are fighting a war. The figures fail to acknowledge that by failing to count civilian casulties caused by national forces. For example, if Nepalese forces kill 100 villagers and separist Mao rebels kill 25 civilians on a bus, this gets counter as 25 deaths due to left wing terrorists. The 100 deaths are not counted.

The second point I was trying to get across was whether Americans really worry about Domestic terrorism in countries like Columbia, India or The Phillipines? Not really. They care about international terrorism that could be directed at their forces of even them. Your link gives no real indication as to how the level of these incidents has changed, but yet uses these domestic terrorists to increase the % of muslim terrorism.

Paul.

"The Muslim world may be suspicious of us, but it is that suspicion that has created a wall behind which the terrorists hide. We need to work together to break down that world. Muslim clerics must own up to the culpability of those who would misuse the Qu'ran to their own violent end."

Well put. I agree completely with the above statement but the Western world is not completely innocent either. We should all own up to our actions.

OK, I dug up a little research on human rights violations. I am listing the contents of the page in its entirety, for your examination. The page is available here:Link.

This is an Amnesty International report. I think any objective human rights crusader can accept them as a fairly hard source of stats, correct? I have not left off their inclusion of the USA in certain categories, neither have I left off their inclusion of Islamic regimes. The point of posting this is to show that human rights violations, while they exist in western countries, exist in Islamist regimes as well I will add some commentary in bold:


EXTRAJUDICIAL EXECUTIONS / UNLAWFUL KILLINGS
Extrajudicial executions were carried out in 47 countries:

Africa: Angola, Burundi, Cameroon, Central African Republic, Republic of Congo, Côte d'Ivoire, Democratic Republic of Congo, Ethiopia, Liberia, Rwanda
Asia: India, Malaysia, Nepal, Thailand, Indonesia, Cambodia, North Korea, Philippines
Americas: Belize, Brazil, Colombia, Dominican Republic, Guyana, Haiti, Jamaica, Mexico, Venezuela, Guatemala, Honduras, Bolivia
Europe and Central Asia: Austria, Bulgaria, France, Germany, Macedonia, Portugal, Russian Federation, Spain, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, UK, Uzbekistan
Middle East and North Africa: Iraq, Iran, Israel/Occupied Territories, Palestinian Authority (notice the USA's absence in this category...yet many Muslim countries are included)


"DISAPPEARANCES"
People were "disappeared" by state agents in 28 countries:

Africa: Angola, Burundi, Central African Republic, Republic of Congo, Côte d'Ivoire, Democratic Republic of Congo, Ethiopia, Liberia, Rwanda
Asia: India, Indonesia, Nepal, Philippines, Pakistan
Americas: Colombia, Mexico
Europe and Central Asia: Belarus, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia, Russian Federation, Spain
Middle East and North Africa:Algeria, Iraq, Israel/Occupied Territories, Kuwait, Libya, Saudi Arabia, Syria (again, no mention of the USA)


TORTURE AND ILL-TREATMENT
Victims of torture and ill-treatment by security forces, police and other state authorities were reported in 132 countries:

Africa: Angola, Burundi, Cameroon, Chad, Comoros, Rep. of Congo, Democratic Republic of Congo, Côte d'Ivoire, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Gambia, Guinea, Guinea-Bissau, Kenya, Liberia, Madagascar, Mauritania, Malawi, Mozambique, Namibia, Niger, Nigeria, Rwanda, Senegal, South Africa, Sudan, Swaziland, Togo, Uganda, Zambia, Zimbabwe
Asia: Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Cambodia, China, Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Republic of Korea, India, Indonesia, Japan, Laos, Malaysia, Maldives, Mongolia, Myanmar, Nepal, Pakistan, Philippines, Singapore, Solomon Islands, Sri Lanka, Taiwan
Americas: Argentina, Bahamas, Belize, Bolivia, Brazil, Canada, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador, Guyana, Haiti, Honduras, Jamaica, Mexico, Nicaragua, Paraguay, Peru, Suriname, Trinidad and Tobago, USA, Uruguay, Venezuela
Europe and Central Asia: Albania, Armenia, Austria, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Belgium, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Estonia, France, Georgia, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Moldova, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Russian Federation, Serbia and Montenegro, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, Tajikistan, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Ukraine, Uzbekistan
Middle East and North Africa: Algeria, Bahrain, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Israel/Occupied Territories, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco/Western Sahara, Palestinian Authority, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Tunisia, UAE, Yemen
(This one I will concede, as the report is not recent enough to cover Abu Ghraib; the USA should be included here)


PRISONERS OF CONSCIENCE
Prisoners of conscience were held in 44 countries:

Africa: Burundi, Cameroon, Chad, Democratic Republic of Congo, Equatorial Guinea, Eritrea, Guinea, Liberia, Rwanda, Togo
Asia: Bhutan, China, Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Republic of Korea, Nepal, Indonesia, Maldives, Myanmar, Thailand, Vietnam
Americas: Cuba, Peru, Mexico
Europe and Central Asia: Armenia, Belarus, Finland, Russian Federation, Turkey, Turkmenistan, Ukraine
Middle East and North Africa: Algeria, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Israel/Occupied Territories, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco/Western Sahara, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Tunisia, Yemen
(USA is again absent...again, many Muslim nations are here)

DETENTION WITHOUT CHARGE OR TRIAL
People were arbitrarily arrested and detained without charge or trial in 58 countries:

Africa: Burundi, Central African Republic, Chad, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Côte d'Ivoir, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Guinea-Bissau, Kenya, Madagascar, Malawi, Mauritania, Niger, Nigeria, Rwanda, Senegal, Sierra Leone, Somalia, Sudan, Swaziland, Tanzania, Togo, Uganda, Zimbabwe
Asia : Afganistan, Bangladesh, Brunei Darussalam, China, India, Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Malaysia, Maldives, Myanmar, Nepal, Pakistan, Papua New Guinea, Singapore, Sri Lanka, Vietnam
Americas: Colombia, Cuba, Jamaica, USA
Europe and Central Asia: United Kingdom
Middle East and North Africa: Algeria, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Israel/Occupied Territories, Lebanon, Libya, Morocco/Western Sahara, Palestinian Authority, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates, Yemen
(if the USA wasn't included on this list, I was going to add it here as well)

DEATH PENALTY
People were sentenced to death in 63 countries:

Africa: Burkina Faso, Burundi, Cameroon, Chad, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Ethiopia, Ghana, Malawi, Nigeria, Rwanda, Somalia, Sudan, Swaziland, Tanzania, Uganda, Zambia
Asia: Bangladesh, China, India, Indonesia, Japan, Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Laos, Malaysia, Myanmar, Pakistan, Papua New Guinea, Philippines, Singapore, Sri Lanka, Taiwan, Thailand, Vietnam
Americas: Bahamas, Belize, Cuba, Guatemala, Guyana, Jamaica, Mexico, Saint Lucia, Trinidad and Tobago, USA
Europe and Central Asia: Armenia, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Qatar, Samoa, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan
Middle East and North Africa: Algeria, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Morocco/Western Sahara, Palestinian Authority, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Yemen

People were executed in 28 countries:

Africa: Botawana, Chad, Democratic Republic of Congo, Somalia, Sudan, Uganda, Zimbabwe
Asia: Bangladesh, Japan, China, Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Mongolia, Pakistan, Singapore, Taiwan, Thailand, Vietnam
Americas: Cuba, USA
Europe and Central Asia: Belarus, Egypt, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan
Middle East and North Africa: Iran, Iraq, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, YemenHUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES BY ARMED OPPOSITION GROUPS
Armed opposition groups committed serious human rights violations, such as deliberate and arbitrary killings of civilians, torture and abductions or hostage taking in 35 countries.

Armed groups have committed violent acts and killings in 34 countries:

Africa: Angola, Burundi, Central Africa Republic, DR Congo, Côte d'Ivoire, Ethiopia, Liberia, Senegal, Somalia, Sudan, Uganda
Asia: Afghanistan, India, Indonesia, Laos, Nepal, Pakistan, Philippines, Solomon Islands, Sri Lanka
Americas: Colombia, Haiti
Europe and Central Asia: Macedonia, Russian Federation, Serbia and Montenegro, Spain, Turkey, UK
Middle East and North Africa: Algeria, Iraq, Israel/Occupied Territories, Morocco/Western Sahara, Saudi Arabia, Palestinian
(again, note USA's absence)

AuthorityArmed groups have committed torture and ill-treatment in 18 countries:

Africa: Angola, Burundi, Democratic Republic of Congo, Côte d'Ivoire, Liberia, Senegal, Somalia, Sudan, Uganda
Asia: Afghanistan, India, Indonesia, Nepal, Solomon Islands, Sri Lanka
Americas: No record
Europe and Central Asia: UK
Middle East and North Africa: Algeria, Iraq
(and again...)

Armed groups have committed hostage takings and abductions in 16 countries:

Africa: Burundi, Democratic Republic of Congo, Liberia, Senegal, Somalia, Sudan, Uganda.
Asia: Afghanistan, Indonesia, Nepal, Philippines, Sri Lanka
Americas: Colombia, Peru
Europe and Central Asia: No record
Middle East and North Africa: Algeria, Iraq(No USA here either)

While we can't draw a lot of hard conclusions here, we should note that again, many Muslim nations stand out prominently. What I presented in the article was one measurable statistic; it is absurd to suggest as you do that the atrocities of other countries (which in your little world are absent in Muslim countries) balance out the notable prevalence of violence in the Muslim world.Solitair, you are an excellent apologist for Islam. One can only wonder why, if you are convinced they are a completely misunderstood and peaceful faith, you haven't packed your bags and moved to an Islamic nation--they are apparently utopias.

The figures fail to acknowledge that by failing to count civilian casulties caused by national forces. For example, if Nepalese forces kill 100 villagers and separist Mao rebels kill 25 civilians on a bus, this gets counter as 25 deaths due to left wing terrorists. The 100 deaths are not counted.

The 56% statistic refers to ACTS of terrorism, not casualty count. I personally am willing to assume for the sake of argument that the state sponsored acts balance out; I believe I could conclusively state that they're no less prevalent in the Islamic countries than they are in the western countries.

The second point I was trying to get across was whether Americans really worry about Domestic terrorism in countries like Columbia, India or The Phillipines? Not really. They care about international terrorism that could be directed at their forces of even them. Your link gives no real indication as to how the level of these incidents has changed, but yet uses these domestic terrorists to increase the % of muslim terrorism.

No, the research is on ALL domestic terrorism, not just that in Islamist countries, and it is a fair statistical analysis, I believe.
In all fairness, I added the AI report above. Although it does not give numbers, it does list the nations from which human rights violations in these categories were recorded.

The fact is, my article is in no way a slam on Muslims. In fact, my conclusion was that these acts are committed by a minority of Muslims. But the fact that the percentages skew SIGNIFICANTLY towards radical Muslims as the perpetrators of violence is a fact we can't easily ignore. It is also a fact that the moderate Muslim clerics need to be addressing heavily.

"The Muslim world may be suspicious of us, but it is that suspicion that has created a wall behind which the terrorists hide. We need to work together to break down that world. Muslim clerics must own up to the culpability of those who would misuse the Qu'ran to their own violent end." I am totally with you on this. An extremely interesting and needed article.

but the Western world is not completely innocent either. We should all own up to our actions.

Yes, too often we take a holier than thou approach in trying to influence the rest of the world with our virtues.

Did anyone else notice that Iraq was included in the lists under each category of Human Rights Violations?

I'm trying to re-post Gideon's table in a much more legible format....


Statistics on terrorism

year		international terrorism (U.S. DOS figures)				int'l. and domestic terrorism (RAND/MIPT figures)
		incidents	fatalities	injuries		incidents	fatalities	injuries
1968		124	34			132	32	191
1969		189	55			155	12	110
1970		300	128			215	105	161
1971		241	35			150	66	91
1972		528	147			171	191	166
1973		323	120			193	72	504
1974		429	304			237	229	690
1975		349	258			221	102	556
1976		468	406			325	346	805
1977		428	245			242	80	299
1978		544	438			242	263	405
1979		441	686			271	290	1,060
1980		499	486			268	156	332
1981		489	164			318	329	1,187
1982		500	129			384	188	637
1983		506	641			317	589	1,045
1984		565	329			326	182	502
1985		635	816			438	688	1,255
1986		612	591			379	346	1,221
1987		665	623			355	358	1,219
1988		605	643	1,131		377	593	1,869
1989		375	411	420		367	170	507
1990		437	218			302	121	366
1991		565	102	242		436	175	284
1992		363	91	636		310	154	751
1993		431	109	1,393		320	464	2,806
1994		322	314	663		333	397	1,088
1995		440	177	6,291		258	245	6,007
1996		296	314	2,911		246	551	2,957
1997		304	221	693		192	266	946
1998		274	741	5,953		1,265	2,149	8,079
1999		395	233	706		1,148	822	2,074
2000		426	405	800		1,138	776	2,537
2001		355	3,295	2,283		1,732	4,643	3,954
2002		205	725	2,013		2,645	2,709	6,708
2003		208	625	3,646		1,772	1,946	5,367
2004						588	1,441	2,935

Yes, too often we take a holier than thou approach in trying to influence the rest of the world with our virtues.

The western world HAS owned up to its terrorist actions. Very few Christian churches, for instance, have stood behind Eric Rudolph, and the Fred Phelps-led protest of Matthew Sheppard's funeral wound up being a huge non-story. If even a sizable faction of Christians felt as he did, there would have been thousands there to protest.

I have not once claimed we are without spot; in fact, in the AI report, I SPECIFICALLY add Abu Ghraib as an incidence of US torture not reported there. But, pointing the finger back at the accuser does not mitigate ones' own guilt.

Think about it: 20% of the world's population, 56% of the world's terror attacks.

Those statistics are pretty hard to neutralize