I think one of the most abused tools around here is logic. It's like every thousand years or so humans realize that by walking through logical conclusions you can prove basically anything. Then, for some reason, it takes us a thousand years to muddle back to that conclusion.

As jaded, propagandized and partisan as the world is now I think we are coming back around. I have laughed secretly to myself several times that I could argue against myself and win on discussions here using logic alone... and be totally, criminally wrong...

I find logic most abused on topis where the morality is a given; i.s. "the poor", "peace", etc. People don't realize that almost every sick, twisted blot on human history has been enacted because the villain d'jour was able to logically justify what he was doing. If you can fail on that end of the spectrum, you can fail on the opposite end as well.

You know, I was thinking of starting a blog here with a very similar introspective post, and now you've gone and done it before me and I've no more ideas for a first post. Damn.

Anyway.

Any point made by someone of lesser intellect, for example, may be perceived as wrong, even if the person has hit on a truth you did not perceive.

I was just thinking to myself today what a bad habit I have of looking down on someone who knows less than me about something. Not in a maliscious way, just a condescending and "pitiable" way. For instance, I am currently working as an intern in the IT department of a corporation, meaning I have to administer to various computer problems people may face. Sometimes it's something really messed up and out there, but most of the time, it's invariably something I find simple.

And I always feel bad when I start getting condescending in my head, though I'm always polite face-to-face, because I know these people have other things to worry about than how to fix some simple setting problem, or Windows mess-up, and that they probably know a hell of a lot about something that would be completely foreign to me. I just wish I could overcome that stupid little part of human nature in the back of my head going "I know more than yoouuuuu."

At the same time, I acknowledge it's a reversed situation when there is something I wish I knew something about, that others seem to master, like some of the people I work with talking about cars and engines for instance.

Intelligence, in my opinion, is always a liability when one uses it to direct hate and anger at their adversaries.

Again, this ends up true more often than not, as is your story about spewing vulgarities. I have found that when I get really, really angry my reasoning tends to get clouded and coherence is lost in favor of blind obscenity, which is hardly a good way to convince another of my point.

Generally, I've been trying to temper myself more and not respond to something I greatly disagree with unless I take the time, even if it's just a few seconds, to consider what it is I am saying and how best to do it. Too bad I still fail sometimes.

P.S. It can also be funny to sink waaaay below someone being overly intelligent. I've seen several discussions wherein people have started over-intellectualizing and bludgeoning others with their logic only to find themselves left completely speechless by someone that can hack through it all and turn what they are saying into a third grade haiku.. ...

Sometimes it takes a different kind of intelligence to see how completely un-intelligent an empty diatribe is when it is veiled in rhetoric and big words. Sometimes you can get spun around by a Mark Twain or Andy Griffith when you are writing a disertation and they can refute you using a third grade vocabulary.

Shitzu: "He's Nick Burns, your company's computer guy!"

OK, with that out of the way, I must say that I find it daunting to even enter some discussions here because I do not have the intellect to keep up or for fear that I will be, as Bakerstreet puts it, "bludgeoned with my own logic". JU can be very intimidating, but it also gives me the opportunity to gain a broader understanding of the world around me.

I would like to believe that I am receptive to new thoughts and ideas and willing to change my stance if I can be shown that I am mistaken. However, I also believe that that it's important not to be "so open-minded that my brains fall out". I am just excited to be able to share my thoughts and read the thoughts and views of others. It's like human adult interaction in computer form! Woohoo!

Great post, Gideon.

I think one of the most abused tools around here is logic.

I could argue against myself and win on discussions here using logic alone... and be totally, criminally wrong...

twisted blot on human history has been enacted because the villain d'jour was able to logically justify what he was doing.

I believe you are confusing logic with rationalization.

Shitzu: "He's Nick Burns, your company's computer guy!"

Hey now, I said I was polite in person >8P.

"I believe you are confusing logic with rationalization."

Nope, I'm not, Abe.

Main Entry: log·ic
Pronunciation: 'lä-jik
Function: noun

1 a (1) : a science that deals with the principles and criteria of validity of inference and demonstration : the science of the formal principles of reasoning
(2) : a branch or variety of logic
(3) : a branch of semiotic; especially : SYNTACTICS
(4) : the formal principles of a branch of knowledge
b (1) : a particular mode of reasoning viewed as valid or faulty
(2) : RELEVANCE, PROPRIETY c : interrelation or sequence of facts or events when seen as inevitable or predictable d : the arrangement of circuit elements (as in a computer) needed for computation; also : the circuits themselves
2 : something that forces a decision apart from or in opposition to reason

You can work through something logically and come to completely, insanely incorrect answers. Logic is based upon what we know, and our knowledge is fallible. People around here function with so much a priori assumption that their towers of logic teeter with every breeze...

I believe you are confusing logic with rationalization.

One of the lessons Robert S. McNamara lists in 'The Fog of War' is 'rationality will not save us'. As an example he recounts a meeting he had with Castro many years after the Cuban Crisis. RM: 'President Castro, would you have used nuclear weapons had we attacked?' FC: 'Yes, and so would you.' He does not use the word 'logic' here for a reason. So you can add me and the man described by Goldwater as 'an IBM machine on legs' to those who would agree with you here, Abe.

have laughed secretly to myself several times that I could argue against myself and win on discussions here using logic alone... and be totally, criminally wrong...

P.S. It can also be funny to sink waaaay below someone being overly intelligent

I have gained valuable insight into your uniqueness. Thanks for posting this.

"uniquness" lol...

Oh, it's so good to have you back. When you were "away" the site seemed so irrational and antagonistic, but you put everything back into perspective in such a short time.

Thanks.

One problem is that all people have a tendency to make up their minds on an issue, then try and fit new evidence into their preexisting idea of the world. So smart people are skilled use their intelligence to interpret the available evidence to come to the result they want to achieve, rather than evaluating the evidence for what it is. This can make smart people really inflexible.

BakerStreet, here are some good resources. I hope you find them useful--I certainly have.

Link

Link

I think intelligence can be a liability when it causes one to have arrogance and possibly dismiss someones insight intentionally or not.  Socrates once said "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing."  That is something I try and remind myself of, though not always successfully.

Never argue with an idiot. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Abe: I'm glad you find the site in question useful, but the definition of logic listed there isn't classical or really even recognizable to me.

"What is Logic? The term "logic" is used quite a lot, but not always in its technical sense. Logic, strictly speaking, is the science or study of how to evaluate arguments and reasoning. Logic is what allows us to distinguish correct reasoning from poor reasoning. Logic is important because it helps us reason correctly - without correct reasoning, we don't have a viable means for knowing the truth or arriving at sound beliefs."

I don't know what they mean by "strictly speaking". Doesn't look familiar to me in the philosophical sense at all.

Never argue with an idiot. They'll just drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Heh, good point...