I believe people when they say they believe and feel all these things they find in the bible, but for me...nope, not happening. Not for lack of trying.

I understand.

The most compelling witness of my own faith, Tex, is that while I can walk away from churches I can't walk away from Christ. I just wish I could find my own "hive" (to use LW's illustration from the other day) that felt the same way.

Despite what they tell you when they lead you to Christ, despite what they say from the pulpits, the church in America doesn't WANT castoffs. They don't want people with questions, they don't want people with problems

You're right. They don't. They want people who 'fit' into their congregaions, and if you don't 'fit', then they either look down on you and ostracize you, or they find ways of running you out of church. I've seen it, and it's happened to me. I prefer to worship in my own way, on my own time. I don't need a church to do that.

You know, I keep track of you through your blogs. I read them to see how you are doing. The times I have gone by your house to visit, you haven't been there. Wendell and I chat about you. Joe and I talk about you. It makes me sad to see what has happened in the town and in relationships. In some way, I feel I'm a direct cause.

You may or may not know this, but a little while after you left the church, three of the deacons and their wives began to try to force me out of the church. (They had been trying for about 2 years through pay cuts, lies and gossip about me and my family, abusive speech toward me in meetings, etc) Needless to say, their "plan" didn't work. In fact, they left the church. I regret that things went the way they did, but I can see how God's plan was worked out in a way that I could never have imagined.

I have forgiven these families and I pray for them often, that they would grow and prosper in their new churches.

I guess I am telling you this because I want you to forgive those who hurt you.
I also want you to know that you are, and have always been welcome to come back.
The Church has NEVER rejected ANYONE.
Unfortunately, our churches are merely small, imperfect parts of the Church. And, as individual Christians, we can only strive to make them what the Lord wants them to be.

No, you've never been anything but kind to us, Chris. I understand you're in a difficult position, and I pray for you and your family. If anyone can make a difference, you can.



I'm trying to, Chris. In one sense, blogs are part of the process of working through it all.

I would have to say what we're going through is the pain of someone who desperately aches, desperately hungers for the kind of fellowship and togetherness we should have as a church body. I KNOW I'm not where I need to be, and that's probably the biggest part of the ache.

What hurt with that church in particular was the backstabbing. I wish we could go back. Unfortunately most of the churches we've found most accepting are not churches that we feel close to in a doctrinal sense. It's frustrating and spiritually painful.

What I can't do, though, is put my family in danger. And as you know there are people in that church who feel compelled to attack my family to get to me.

Things are going very well for us right now in a secular sense. I wish I was more comfortable with how it was in a spiritual sense. But I'm finding that one a little harder to come across. I know there's a reason, but what, exactly IS that reason?

Thanks for the comments, Chris. You're always welcome here.

"I expect the church to be better than ME."

The church is made up of people just like you. Sorry Gid!

"But over time I have learned an astounding fact. Despite what they tell you when they lead you to Christ, despite what they say from the pulpits, the church in America doesn't WANT castoffs. They don't want people with questions, they don't want people with problems. They want people with nice and sunny dispositions who can smile and look pretty for the camera. And whose checks help them pay for more whitewashed tombs to be built."

A good point, and probably true for a whole lot of churches. Not all of them, though. What good are we going to do each other if we can't open up about our sins? How will we conquer them if we keep them secret? We won't. There is strength in numbers, and Satan doesn't want those numbers to amass against sin. So we have church cultures that hate people who they feel are blemishes on the face of the church, and while they're right, they can't hate the person - hate the action, love the person, and by loving the person, work to free them from that sin. These days, you admit to sinning in a church and you'll be cast out.

As one who has never really fit the mold of anything, I understand what you are saying completely. In churches I've attended I've been rejected almost universally, I've been accepted and I've even been a mover and a shaker.

I wish I could sit here and say that the only difference has been my attitude towards the other people. Well, I haven't chance my attitude to fit any of the wards. What I have noticed is, some wards are just more eager to accept the guy that just doenst' quite fit in.

In most the wards I've been in, I've been a young men's group counselor. I almost always gravitated towards the kids who were having (and or causing) problems. This has made adults either see me as someone encouraging the kids to be problems or helping them figure out a few things about life.

So, even though it is more fun to be in a congregation who accepts us as we are, since that isn't the point of going, I don't let it bother me much.

Accepting me is one thing, Para. Actually attacking my family is another.

I don't have the money to pay lawyers to defend us against every bogus allegation these people will file, nor to bail myself out of jail the next time they arrest me for some piddly charge.

The last two years have taken a heavy toll on me emotionally, mentally, and physically. And not having anyone to vent to only adds to it. The day we wipe the dust of this town off our sandals will be a happy one. As sad as that is to say.

Just for the record: we've spent over $2000 in the last year taking care of legal issues related to this BS. That's a hefty sum at my salary. I can't keep it up.

Where's the power of the cross, Jythier? Where are the saved lives, the new creations? Where are the fruits of the Spirit?

Exactly the same place it is in your life, it is for many other lives - shifted out of focus by something else, perhaps an attack by demons, perhaps just someone afraid of that power, afraid of being a truly new creation, or harvesting the fruits of the Spirit.. honestly, for most of us comfortable creatures in America, being persecuted scares the hell out of us. But that's what is promised to happen to those who are really living it. Show the face of Jesus, and bad things are going to start happening, in a concerted effort to stop you from showing that face. Persevere, and that's the rest of your life. We're commanded to do so, and be joyful in the face of it. That's why people don't do it, it's hard. It's dangerous. It's uncomfortable.

I've seen all those things, though, in a church, too. In New Hampshire. A little church, couldn't be more than 100 people in it, but they are on a mission to change the town, and after the town, the state. They divided up the town into sections and go pray for their section. They looked up records in the library so they could pray for the people who lived their by name. They pray against the tarot reading shop that just opened, and for the proprietor. They know who the enemy is. If you go to that little church, that meets in a school because there's no money to rent a storefront anymore, you will see the power of the cross, saved lives, new creations, and the fruits of the Spirit. If it's still the same, which I do not doubt.

The people I knew who go there are full-time Christians. Everyone knows everyone, cares about everyone.

These churches do exist, they are just so hard to find.

My church in Rhode Island feels like it's heading toward just being a social club on Sunday, despite the best efforts of the pastor to prevent it. Pastor has such a heart for God, he's a full-time Christian too, but the church is just too big.

By the way, I thought I had seen you say something about not being focused - it wasn't even those words, but I can't find it now. So if it's not so for you, all the better, and please pardon me for speaking of you as if it were so.

Yes, they do exist. I go to one. We are constantly reminding ourselves it's all about focus. Keeping our eyes on the one who matters. Prayer is also a huge part of what we have up here.

I have a friend who moved to Florida. Her husband (a non Christian) told her she had to move or stay without him. She moved, but was and is church homesick to the point of many tears. She's been looking for over a year and a half and can't find a church like we have here in New England.

She walked into our church maybe about five years ago alone looking for answers. She hadn't gone to church since she was a small child. She knew not a soul. She wouldn't talk to anybody, kept her distance, sat in the back row every service and we literally watched her blossom over the years to the point of singing a small solo in a cantata (just before she left)and now when she comes to visit sits in the very front row singing her heart out. She comes back as much as she can make the trek.

That's what church is all about. Worship, Family, fellowship, and lots and lots of love.

Jesus said others would know who we belonged to by the love we have for one another. We need to get the focus back. Too much other crap has been clouding our view for too long. We know who's behind it. We need to get around the obstacles he throws our way and stay on the running path and not let anything sway us away.

I pray Gid that you will soon find a church home to worship in that you and and your family can grow and flourish in like my friend did here.



Jythier if your Pastor is trying to do this alone, he will fail. He needs to have strong male leadership who have hearts for God and are humbled and willing to help your pastor and the church body. I've seen too many churches fail because the Pastor tries to do it alone. Eventually he'll burn out or drown in the sea of very rebellious sheep. Even Moses and the Apostles got help remember.

One of the first things my husband did was look for the most Godly committed men he could find and ordain them elders. This was not done rashly but with much prayer and reflection and watchful eyes of the Pastor. Even now he's watching for more, and it's been awesome to see these men grow in the Lord over a period of time before they become elders. He'll have as many as he sees are ready to do this. Usually it's not the men who desire the job but the ones who feel they are not good enough. Those are the ones we want.

God spent the first 40 years of Moses life making Moses into a great somebody. Then he spent the next 40 years showing Moses he was a nobody chasing the wrong end of sheep around a desert. Then at 80 years of age, Moses learned from God for the next 40 years that God could take a nobody and make him a somebody He could use.

The problem with the churches nowadays is we have too many sombody's running the churches that haven't been made into nobody's first.

That's a very good observation, KFC. I like it.

I'll get around with my email later.

We have elders. They also seem to have hearts for God. But here's the kind of thing that happens.

A couple of major people in our church (ie worship ministry, family of Pastor/elders) got together and formed a record label. I was thinking, wow, this will be great, a record label. They held a concert right in our church, even. I went, because I went to small group with one of the groups performing (it was a showcase of their bands). It was a bunch of Christians playing... secular... music... what? I came to a church and heard a secular concert? The group I went to see played third of four, played a new song that was funny at that point but now that I look back was really pathetic compared to what I know they can do, and a couple songs from the Christian album of theirs I have. I left after them.

Wow, four bands, three secular and the fourth heading there... just hadn't written enough songs to not play the Christian ones, I guess. Sad.

I tried to say something after the concert to my friend, that I hoped he didn't go the way the others had... and he got pissed.

So people from my church can form secular bands, and they'll probably even 'make it' but at what cost? It's so hard to find good Christian music, if they had just kept doing what they were doing they would have done just fine, I know it.

KFC, ever heard of Dave Luben? He was a really good worship leader. Now he's David Martin, a secular love song guy.

I'm glad they don't live around here anymore, or I would kick the moneychangers out of his temple, if you know what I mean.

So I know I can trust the pastor, and at least 2 of the other 3 elders. But leadership should be committed to God, I think, in everything they do, not just the church things they do.

Astonish

Yes, I AM astonished. But not the way you think.