The journey from there to here

While I will readily concede that extremes of virtually all points of view can be damaging in certain contexts, I must take issue with the current fad of drawing a moral equivalency between an extremist Christian church in America and an extremist Muslim mosque in the middle east.

In America, we have the luxury of living where the vast majority of Muslims you will encounter are as peace loving and amiable as practioners of any faith, and of those who practice no faith whatsoever. On the whole, we're a pretty cool country, as far as religious tolerance goes, even though we DO have our share of whackos, something that's pretty understandable in a country of 300 million.

But not everyone thinks things are so cool. I have read countless articles that compare various conservative Christian groups with the Taliban, al Qaeda, and other Islamic fundamentalist groups. I find those articles and the assertions of those who subscribe to those beliefs troubling, as, except for very few of the "worst of the worst", even some Christians with some hardcore beliefs excercise a great deal of restraint. How can someone, with a straight face, even BEGIN to compare idiots who protest at funerals to deliberately incite others to anger with someone who straps a few pounds of C4 to their carcass and heads into a crowded shopping mall with the express intention of maximizing civilian casualties? While both positions are appalling in this writer's estimation, in the former example, the victims at least retain their life and their right to express outrage.

While there may be examples of Christians in other countries who perform the same vile acts as these Islamic extremists, the press certainly hasn't done much to expose them if, indeed, they exist. And I find it unlikely that a press who would characterize a Jerry Falwell or a Pat Robertson as being "typical" of conservative Christians in America wouldn't jump at the chance to write up a story of a Christian suicide bomber. It would be too sensational for our reporters to pass up.

The Christian faith is far from perfect and certainly has its share of idiots professing to share the faith. But for all its imperfections, the Christian church has, at least in recent years, been relatively peaceful on the world stage. Even the most extremist Christian churches tend to be strong on rhetoric, but weak on action. The same can NOT be said of the most extremist Muslim mosques.


Comments (Page 1)
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on Oct 08, 2006

The ones who compare the 2, do so on 2 levels.  One is the history of Christians and they push the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition for their justification.  That of course falls flat as anyone can trace atrocities of any ethnic or religious group if they go back far enough.

The second is they tout the ones like Roberts.  And while he had some supporters, it fails on 2 aspects.  One is that Roberts was targeting the institution of his hatred.  That does not make it right, but that does make it different from the Islamic extremist who target anyone, not the source of their hatred.  The second aspect in which it fails is that mainstream Christians, almost to a man, rose up and decried it vociferiously (sp) and that has not occured with Muslim extremist.

In short, the ones that want to compare the 2, are just appologist for Osama Bin Laden, and in the final analysis, not really any better than the rest of the 'silent majority' of muslims that fail to condemn vociferously the hatred of those who pretend to profess their religion.

Either that, or we have to believe they represent it.  Which is it?

on Oct 08, 2006
While the violent Christian extremist is rare, they do exist. Abortion clinic bombers come to mind. The biggest differences are that they are so rare and the mainstream Christians are quick to publicly denounce their actions (as they well should).
on Oct 08, 2006
While the violent Christian extremist is rare, they do exist.


Not ONE of these came out of a Pentecostal summer camp, to my knowledge, Mason.

I have known MANY Christians of VERY conservative, and VERY extremist persuasions. While they may have a very negative view on the activities of many of these groups (as, frankly, do I), NOT ONCE in any sermon or bible study led by these people have I EVER heard a call to violence. Not ONCE. Almost all of the instances of violence you can cite of Christian extremists have been perpetrated by loners, and NOT as part of a larger group.

And yes, I AM sick of people portraying these extremists as typical. You may think my response on your thread to have been "starting shit", Mason, but the truth is, on a blog written in the last few days, the comparison WAS made between Christian conservatives and Islamic extremists. I won't link it here, but it's easy enough to find. And it was NOT from someone on the "fringe" of JU, but from a fairly prominent blogger and one I generally respect.
on Oct 08, 2006

While the violent Christian extremist is rare, they do exist. Abortion clinic bombers come to mind.

That's what I was going to say.  They DO exist, Gid, whether you've met one or not. They may not be AS extreme as Muslims who blow themselves up and take 50 other people with them, but they ARE around. 

 

on Oct 08, 2006
They may not be AS extreme as Muslims who blow themselves up and take 50 other people with them, but they ARE around.


The Ku Klux Klan and many of the 'Mountain Men' style organisations are Christian organisations. While they're less active these days than they were in the past all it would require is a catalyst for them to return in barbaric glory.
on Oct 09, 2006
The ones who compare the 2, do so on 2 levels. One is the history of Christians and they push the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition for their justification. That of course falls flat as anyone can trace atrocities of any ethnic or religious group if they go back far enough.


That's the level I would have highlighted too. I don’t think it falls flat, however, and it’s not something we should sweep under the carpet. It was ‘where we were at’, at the time, and it’s a significant phase of Christianity’s journey and path.

Imagine, hypothetically, that that particular phase of Christianity’s life manifested itself now – in today’s media age. Every killing of non-Christians, in the name of Mother Church - which was executed on a massive scale - would be beamed around the world on TV into people’s living rooms for everyone to see.

How would the popular mindset react? Naturally, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, humanists, atheists, and whoever else would understandably conclude, “What a horrible and violent religion Christianity is!”

Yet those with wisdom and a sound mind – Christians included - would conclude, “No. Christianity is not a horrible and violent religion. It is those misguided Christians who are off the ball. Fair enough”, they would continue, “the Bible contains many verses that encourage mass extermination and violence toward the so-called opposition - as does the Qu’ran. But the majority of Biblical writings - like the majority of the Qu’ran’s writings – indeed encourage goodness, love, compassion and forgiveness. No. It is those misguided Christians who are off the ball. There is much room for growth for Christians and for the popular interpretation of the Christian message.”

And that’s how I view Islam today. Islam is a younger religion than Christianity, remember. Muslims are simply ‘where they are at’. There is room for growth, and they can mature in their views and interpretations. As can people who judge Islam as a horrible and violent religion.
on Oct 09, 2006
That's the level I would have highlighted too. I don’t think it falls flat, however, and it’s not something we should sweep under the carpet. It was ‘where we were at’, at the time, and it’s a significant phase of Christianity’s journey and path.


it falls flat because it was a period of the history, not the whole history. Islamic terrorists are trying to make it their whole history. They had their crusades and inquisition, and are still having them. The world has grown up a lot in the last 1000 years, but Islam apparently has not.
on Oct 09, 2006
They may not be AS extreme as Muslims who blow themselves up and take 50 other people with them, but they ARE around.


My challenge remains: Please link me to ONE story of anyone coming from a PENTECOSTAL church who bombed an abortion clinic or shot a doctor who performed an abortion. You won't find these stories, because they don't exist.

The challenge is as specific as it is because the charge specifically identifies Pentecostal youth camps as being morally equivalent to alQaeda training camps. if they are morally equivalent, why aren't they producing the same results?

I would also like to say that, while it is still a morally reprehensible act, even bombing an abortion clinic is still terrorism on a different level than bllowing up people in a crowded shopping mall or in a New York skyscraper.
on Oct 09, 2006
It seems to me the more "extreme" a Christian gets, the more peaceful they'd become.

I submit that anyone who does terrorism in the name of Jesus, is not familiar with Him at all. And would use the name of any deity, to which they are familiar, to justify their murder.

It is my understanding from portions I've read of the Koran, that the more extreme one becomes in that faith, the more violence is required toward those who will not be converted.

on Oct 09, 2006
it falls flat because it was a period of the history, not the whole history. Islamic terrorists are trying to make it their whole history. They had their crusades and inquisition, and are still having them. The world has grown up a lot in the last 1000 years, but Islam apparently has not.


Islamic terrorists form an extreme minority of Muslims. If we identify Islam with the extreme minority, and also assume that Muslims will never grow up, then in my opinion we’ll come to conclusions that won’t stand the test of time.

it was a period of the history, not the whole history


This is not Islam’s whole history as long as there is a tomorrow. I believe that Christianity’s sins are no worse than Islam’s, with all things considered, and we can treat both parties with understanding, compassion and forgiveness.

This particular time might be a dark chapter in Islam’s history, but in my view, the principle that Muslims will never grow up runs contrary to human nature, and doesn’t quite square with the deeper dynamics of spiritual growth and enlightenment. There is a lot for Muslims to learn in these dark times, just as Christians can learn a lot by observing the futility of their own violent and intolerant behaviour from the past.

It is my understanding from portions I've read of the Koran, that the more extreme one becomes in that faith, the more violence is required toward those who will not be converted.


it will not serve Christians to continue to turn a blind eye to the reams of verses from the Bible which encourage zero tolerance and murder and execution for the so-called opposition, i.e. God’s ‘not-chosen’ ones
on Oct 09, 2006
This is not Islam’s whole history as long as there is a tomorrow.


HISTORY is not tomorrow. History is the past. You can debate me to the cows come home, but the facts are against your arguement.

I believe that Christianity’s sins are no worse than Islam’s, with all things considered, and we can treat both parties with understanding, compassion and forgiveness.


One on one, perhaps. Many to one? You kill a Jew, you are a murderer. You try to kill them all and you are Hitler.
on Oct 09, 2006
HISTORY is not tomorrow. History is the past.


You’re right. Sorry about that. I was talking in terms of Islam’s “whole story”, which you’re right, has a different meaning to “whole history”.

You can debate me to the cows come home, but the facts are against your arguement.


Hope you didn’t make a straw man out of that, otherwise you might have missed my main point.

One on one, perhaps. Many to one? You kill a Jew, you are a murderer. You try to kill them all and you are Hitler.


I don’t understand what you’re saying here. How does it relate to Islam and Christianity?
on Oct 09, 2006
I don’t understand what you’re saying here. How does it relate to Islam and Christianity?


At a point in history, Christianity persecuted Jews and Muslims. A point.

At almost every point in its history, Muslims have been in a jihad against non-believers. A point, versus MANY points.
on Oct 09, 2006
I would also like to say that, while it is still a morally reprehensible act, even bombing an abortion clinic is still terrorism on a different level than bllowing up people in a crowded shopping mall or in a New York skyscraper.


I believe I understand what you're trying to express here but I must respectfully submit that you are splitting a pretty fine hair here. A violent terrorist act is a violent terrorist act and I don't think we should start trying to define degrees of terrorism.
on Oct 09, 2006
what exactly was the core issue in the balkans following the breakup of jugoslavia?

keep in mind i live in a community in which there still reside men and women who lived there thru wwii, immigrated here afterwards and were--no more than 15 years ago--still fighting that war. for several weeks, serbs and croats lined opposite sides of a main, each group costumed in full old world folk dress. (depending on which way i was going, i'd honk and snap a nazi salute or wave a red flag   

also remember most of the muslims who were killed there in pursuit of 'ethnic' cleansing (with the possible exception of albanians in kosovo) as well as the women who were forcibly impregnated with 'christian' children share the same bloodline as those who were doing the killing and raping. in other words, they weren't ethnic arabs or turks, but descendants of balkans who converted to islam hundreds of years ago.

i realize it's a localized abberation but it is conversion by the sword in our lifetime--and i've seen it advocated and supported in forums like 'littlegreenfootballs'.
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