The journey from there to here

We were discussing the war in Iraq. The opponent, a seasoned Democrat, was appalled at our presence over there. Her comment was blunt, and forceful: "We don't have the RIGHT to force democracy on other people". I rolled my eyes, having encountered another inconsistency of the left. Allow me to illustrate with a few similar observations using the history of our own nation (note: a few of these positions I actually agree with, most I don't. We'll leave it at that):

  • We don't have the RIGHT to force women's suffrage on the male population
  • We don't have the RIGHT to force slaveholders to emancipate their slaves
  • We don't have the RIGHT to force communities to integrate
  • We don't have the RIGHT to force schools to teach evolution
  • We don't have the RIGHT to force states to accept abortion
  • We don't have the RIGHT to force business owners to pay minimum wage
  • We don't have the RIGHT to force drivers to carry auto insurance
  • We don't have the RIGHT to force people to accept homosexual behaviour
  • We don't have the RIGHT to force public places into ADA compliance
  • We don't have the RIGHT to ban smoking in any public place

Now, I don't agree completely with the war on Iraq, but I DO agree that Iraqi citizens should have the right to choose their own political direction. I believe that they should have a right to live without the fear of "goon squads" by whatever name busting down their door and taking them away in secret because they dared mouth opposition to their government. I believe Iraqi babies have the right to a future, a future too often denied them under the rules of tyrants such as Saddam Hussein.

The question should not be whether a good end can be made of this war. The question should be whether the ends justify the means. While I have not answered that question conclusively, I do believe that many in Iraq face a far more promising future than they faced under the Hussein regime.


Comments (Page 1)
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on Aug 21, 2006
if only she'd said 'we don't have the right to force any form of government on citizens of another sovereign nation.'
on Aug 21, 2006
We don't have the RIGHT to force women's suffrage on the male population


Do you mind explaining this one a bit further. I just don't get it completely. Thanx in advance.

We don't have the RIGHT to force slaveholders to emancipate their slaves


We don't? Hmmm. Can we at least ask them in a really strong way with a really deep voice to please allow them to be free while holding guns in our hands?

We don't have the RIGHT to force communities to integrate


Agreed. I think.

We don't have the RIGHT to force schools to teach evolution


Agreed.

We don't have the RIGHT to force states to accept abortion


Agreed.

We don't have the RIGHT to force business owners to pay minimum wage


No, we should force them to pay 2 dollars above minimum.

We don't have the RIGHT to force drivers to carry auto insurance


This I agree. In the end we have full and not so full coverage. Whats the point if most people don't have full (as long as the car is not new) then you get screwed cause the insurance does not cover.

We don't have the RIGHT to force people to accept homosexual behaviour


Agreed, they can be forced to see it though right?

We don't have the RIGHT to force public places into ADA compliance


Right, what ever ADA is.

We don't have the RIGHT to ban smoking in any public place


Agreed. This kinda defeats the whole freedom thing in this country.

Now, I don't agree completely with the war on Iraq, but I DO agree that Iraqi citizens should have the right to choose their own political direction. I believe that they should have a right to live without the fear of "goon squads" by whatever name busting down their door and taking them away in secret because they dared mouth opposition to their government. I believe Iraqi babies have the right to a future, a future too often denied them under the rules of tyrants such as Saddam Hussein.


This is my reason behind agreeing with the war in Iraq, I believed that we as the greatest country in the world with the most responsability, it was our job to help the less fortunate. But I guess "less fortunate" has different definitions around the world and not everyone who is less fortunate to us is actually less fortunate.

The question should not be whether a good end can be made of this war. The question should be whether the ends justify the means. While I have not answered that question conclusively, I do believe that many in Iraq face a far more promising future than they faced under the Hussein regime.


People talk about how much worse things are without Saddam, it may be true, but this is what happens when that one things that kept everything together was removed. But at the same time it kept it from fixing itself. Saddam was like the duct tape that kept the cardboard box together and stopped everything inside from falling out, but everything inside that cause the box to break in the first place was still misorganized and so everything inside suffered from the damaged box and the tape that held it together by force. Once removed everything inside fell out and everything was a mess, but this gave a chance to get a new better box and allowes for the stuff to be organized and in it's proper place so they don't end up breaking each other.
on Aug 21, 2006
if only she'd said 'we don't have the right to force any form of government on citizens of another sovereign nation.'


The Constitution established us as "United States", kingbee, not a "United State" because the founding fathers believed each state should have a certain degree of sovereignty as well. That's the whole reason behind the oft-ignored tenth amendment.
on Aug 21, 2006
if only she'd said 'we don't have the right to force any form of government on citizens of another sovereign nation.'


Then it does get dicier. But the obverse is "Do we have the right to Deny any form of goverment to another sovereign nation?"
on Aug 21, 2006
if only she'd said 'we don't have the right to force any form of government on citizens of another sovereign nation.'


Insightful as always.

Can you please explain to me WHY in HELL it is our responsibility to "give" democracy to Iraq? Further, can you explain to me WHY in HELL Iraq is so special and we aren't freeing oppressed nations the world over?
on Aug 21, 2006
"Can you please explain to me WHY in HELL it is our responsibility to "give" democracy to Iraq?"


It isn't our responsibility, it is in our interest. People who are able to decide for themselves most often decide selfishly in the name of their comfort and stability. Selfish people don't blow themselves up on buses and fly planes into buildings.

That is exactly what is going on in Iraq right now. They are acting in their own self interest, some with bombs, some politically. In the end, though, the odds are very, very slim that you could get 50 of them together that would be interested in invading Kuwait.

Under Hussein, though, if he said invade, you invaded. We might lament the chaos there, and we might hate how many people are dying, but in the end they are dying because their nation is trying to define itself, which is a damn sight better than dying to make sure Hussein has more money and his sons a few more cars.
on Aug 21, 2006
It isn't our responsibility, it is in our interest.


OK, you say it's in our interest. Please explain to me how we benefit, because I don't see it.
on Aug 21, 2006
the founding fathers believed each state should have a certain degree of sovereignty as well.


i'm lost.

what does any of this have to do with the right of any nation to impose democracy (or any other form of government) on any another nation?
on Aug 21, 2006
The Constitution established us as "United States", kingbee, not a "United State"


e pluribus unum.
on Aug 21, 2006
"e pluribus unum."


"pluribus" being the endangered word in the phrase. The pluralistic nature granting strength to the whole. As it is now becoming, it just equates to a high school cafeteria where the "cool" kids look down their noses at fly-over America. "Unum", indeed. Unum as in you can sit at the cool table if you adopt their ideals, otherwise those ideals are forced down your throat by their pet activisism.

"OK, you say it's in our interest. Please explain to me how we benefit, because I don't see it."


I did in the post you are answering. Point out to me a truly democratic society that you have need to fear or protect yourself from. There's always economic and diplomatic competition, but in terms of a real threat feel free to point out a successful, first-world Democracy that you consider to be a threat to your health and welfare.

That's why it is in your interest for the people of the Middle East to stop being tyrannically ruled and brainwashed by their governments and religious leaders, and to get started making successful lives for themselves in the real world. Until they do, their governments will distract them from the oppressed, squalid nature of their lives by making you and me into "the great satan".
on Aug 22, 2006
what does any of this have to do with the right of any nation to impose democracy (or any other form of government) on any another nation?


Virtually every one of my illustrations are illustrations with which most liberals would disagree, kingbee. I'm at a loss to understand why they think we shouldn't impose our will on foreign nations, yet we SHOULD impose the federal government's will on states in areas clearly not intended by the framers of the Constitution to fall under federal authority.
on Aug 22, 2006
Hmm, because they're foreign?


Umm, read the SECOND part of the sentence, LW. My point was not that we SHOULD enforce our will on other nations, but rather, that we should NOT enforce our will on the various states of the Union, except when it is clearly within the federal government's Constitutional authority. A nation that acts as an empire in its domestic policy will find it only natural to act as an empire in its foreign policy.
on Aug 22, 2006
Point out to me a truly democratic society that you have need to fear or protect yourself from.


For my little country it's the US. If we didn't protect ourselves we'd get consumed utterly. From your part of the world I guess it would be Venezuala. The government of the US seems to bear an irrational fear of that little state's influence. Of course neither the US nor Venezuala are truly democratic, but they're both pretty close.

Hmm, because they're foreign?


That would be my guess. Imperialism is so passe.
on Aug 22, 2006
A nation that acts as an empire in its domestic policy will find it only natural to act as an empire in its foreign policy.


I don't think so. Great Britain is an imperial state vis-a-vis domestic policy but hasn't acted as an empire internationally in decades. The two aren't necessarily linked. Strong central government can exist without the desire to determine the futures of vast tracts of the world.
on Aug 22, 2006
The government of the US seems to bear an irrational fear of that little state's influence.


Actually, no. That is the perception that Chavez is doling out, but the reality is, America is "ho hum" about them! Guess you are buying the Chavez line.
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