The journey from there to here

As the battle on immigration intensifies, I am finding it increasingly necessary to clarify my position. As I watch people rally strongly for or against proposed laws for illegals, it seems to me that both sides are wrong, as compelling as their arguments may be.

First of all, let me be abundantly clear: illegal immigration is a crime, and that fact should not be brushed away! The individuals who are here illegally have often committed multiple crimes, including fraud and identity theft, to stay in the country. This is a fact that any approach to solving the problem MUST recognize.

The problem is, we have many decades of BAD foreign policy to thank for the situation becoming as out of control as it has become. When Reagan and Clinton declared amnesties, it was an open invitation for other illegals to cross, in the hopes that future administrations would do the same. And it was a slap in the face for legal immigrants, who had spent much time and money pursuing citizenship when they would have been much better off coming here illegally.

Not to mention, it's patently racist. As we propose amnesty programs for Latin American citizens, we fail to extend the same courtesy to Haitians, Europeans, Asians, and others who may have arrived here illegally.

We can't undo those decades of failed foreign policy with a magic wand, however. Nor can we undo it by enacting stiffer penalties against illegals. We're not enforcing laws already on the books; what makes us think we will enforce a new set of stricter laws?

As much as I would like to imagine a world where we could identify these illegals and deport them, the sheer numbers make it highly improbable. 11 million illegals outnumbers the entire number of our armed forces and state guard units. Plus, the only way you will find them is by going into the homes of ALL Hispanic families, including legal immigrants and citizens, and jeopardizing their rights. We simply cannot embrace the concept of doing away with the Constitution under the guise of UPHOLDING the Constitution, no matter how popular that concept may be with the GOP higher ups at the time. Added to all of this is the fact that many illegal immigrant families have children who were born in the United States and, due to that fact, are citizens. To change THAT, you would need to amend the Constitution, as the citizenship is a right granted them under the 14th amendment.

Put simply, we need a way for illegals to self identify. While there will be many illegals who don't do that, their numbers will be reduced, making them simpler to locate. Those who wish to become legal residents, and, eventually, citizens, should be required to stand in line to obtain citizenship, pay fines and back taxes, and become proficient in English. The McCain proposal is probably the most sensible solution I have seen to date, although it is certainly NOT a perfect compromise.

As for asset forfeiture, I am never a fan of such action. Even among the illegals we choose to deport, we should allow them to sell off their assets and receive the profits. To fail to do this would be in questionable defiance of the 13th amendment prohibiting slavery and conditions of involuntary servitude. Most disturbing, however, is it is this aspect of proposed solutions that begins to evoke images of totalitarian states such as Nazi Germany.

Any proposal to deal with this situation must not center on the mistakes of the past, but must center on solutions for the future. Even if we could deport all 11 million illegals, it would do little good, as many of them would be back across the border in short order unless we secure the borders. And it's a tad hypocritical of many of us, whose ancestors arrived without the financial means we would otherwise expect of these immigrants to enter this country.

This is an issue that threatens to divide us as a nation. We cannot allow that to happen. We need to arrive at a solution that is in the best interests of ALL Americans, that creates a secure border to stop future immigration, and that effectively deals with the illegals already here. Of the proposals that have been bandied about, I find the McCain proposal offering the most promise. NONE of the solutions, however, could be considered remotely perfect.


Comments
on Apr 12, 2006

We may not be able to round up the 12 million, but we do not have to make them citizens. 

but before we pass one more damn law, we have to secure the borders.  Period.

Then we can decide what to do with those here.  You mention Clinton and Reagan, but forgot Kennedy.  The myopia of politicians is scandalous.  There is no need for new laws if they will not be enforced.  And bad laws are worse than no laws.

on Apr 12, 2006
No offense, Gid, but we aren't a nation ruled by ideals, we are a nation ruled by the people. If we want to we can repeal and amend everything in the Constitution barring slavery and start building plantations. I'm sick to death of Libertarian reality stealing our right to represent ourselves.

If the Constitution prevents us from policing immigration, then perhaps we could amend those parts that prevent it? You should think about your WW2 comparisons a little more carefully. Are we in danger of becoming like the Nazis because of illegals, or because of being told over and over that we have to tolerate social problems because of esoteric ideals?

Illegal immigration is not any different than drug enforcement. We have no problem policing our waters with the military, but the poor mexicans can't be insulted that way. Police the border with the military. Impose MANDATORY jail time on employers who hire illegal immigrants. Impose DRACONIAN punishment on people convicted of forging documentation, and illegals found to be stealing identities of persons either alive or dead should face mandatory jail time as well. We kick in doors for other reasons, why not for illegal immigration?

Mexico is no ally to us, and they promote this behavior, even publishing documents that are meant to teach people to get into the US safely. Until they show meaningful effort to stem the flow of their citizens into our country, they should be treated as an enemy. No diplomatic ties, no aid, no trade. Then police the border as if they are an enemy country, and those who try to penetrate it as invaders.

How's that? A little nauseous? Before you start saying things have to go one way, consider the fact that they can just as easily go the other. Perhaps before you start suggesting that "reality" should override our will, you might consider how nasty the backlash against those values could be when they become more and more seen as obstacles to our will.

Perhaps it would be better to deal with the reality of the popular will and call problems problems. Otherwise you might find that instead of promoting ideals, you've been pointing out roadblocks that can be removed.
on Apr 12, 2006
To be more concise, take someone and tie their hands. Tell them that they have a moral obligation to keep their hands tied, and then beat them. Eventually if you don't deal with the beatings, the person will overcome their moral qualms and do away with what ties their hands.

Helplessness makes monsters, Gid. When you tell us that we have to face reality and just accept that we can't have our way, you make us feel helpless. You say "You can't start kicking in doors" to helpless people and they start saying "Well, can't we?" We can amend the Constitution any way we want.

We're pretty apathetic, so maybe we'd be satisified to sublimate our will and accept your reality. That's not something you can assume, though. Will we care about hurting the sensitiblities of folks like you, when our sensibilities, namely the need for the government to represent our will, are ignored? You might be really thirsty, but that doesn't mean you won't break the bottle of beer to cut someone if you are mad enough.
on Apr 12, 2006
I don't think a new law will be passed but we will have to wait until after Congress's Easter break to find out.

Not to mention, it's patently racist. As we propose amnesty programs for Latin American citizens, we fail to extend the same courtesy to Haitians, Europeans, Asians, and others who may have arrived here illegally.


Only about half of the 11 million illegal immigrants are from Mexico. I guess they are just the most visible but there are illegal immigrants from many other countries who maybe just assimilate better. My husband plays hockey and I've know dozens of Canadians who are here illegally. No one is crying about them. It's my understanding that the bill will apply to all illegal immigrants not just illegal immigrants from Mexico.

Plus, the only way you will find them is by going into the homes of ALL Hispanic families, including legal immigrants and citizens, and jeopardizing their rights


This is one thing that just drives me crazy. People just assume that if you look Mexican or have a Spanish last name that you are illegal. There are millions of latino American citizens who are as American as you or I.

on Apr 12, 2006
Harsh as it sounds, I have to agree with the jist of Bakerstreet.
on Apr 13, 2006

This is one thing that just drives me crazy. People just assume that if you look Mexican or have a Spanish last name that you are illegal. There are millions of latino American citizens who are as American as you or I.

I don't assume ANYONE is illegal, loca. I am saying that if we want to enforce a strict bill, this is what it would require.

If the Constitution prevents us from policing immigration, then perhaps we could amend those parts that prevent it? You should think about your WW2 comparisons a little more carefully. Are we in danger of becoming like the Nazis because of illegals, or because of being told over and over that we have to tolerate social problems because of esoteric ideals?

Neither. We're in danger of becoming like the Nazis because we're close to citizens taking matters into their own hands and electing reactionary candidates.

Baker, I agree with a lot of what you say. But facts are facts, and, like so many government problems, this is one with no easy solution because it requires dealing with decades of governmental neglect. We can't wave a magic wand and make it go away.

I will agree that even the McCain bill sucks on a certain level. What these individuals did IS illegal, and it should be treated as such. You talk about esoteric ideals, baker, yours are just as esoteric; unfortunately, a strict enforcement policy will NOT be implemented because it will NOT win votes, especially in key districts. While the McCain bill sucks, it sucks far LESS than other proposed solutions.

If you want to close the door to immigration, bust down doors and seize all citizens until they prove their citizenship, and deport anyone who can't do so to countries where they are strangers, Baker, go ahead. But while you're doing so, it would be wise to make plans to destroy the Statue of Liberty and burn down Independence Hall, because the principles upon which those monuments have been cherished no longer exist in America.

 

on Apr 13, 2006
Only about half of the 11 million illegal immigrants are from Mexico. I guess they are just the most visible but there are illegal immigrants from many other countries who maybe just assimilate better. My husband plays hockey and I've know dozens of Canadians who are here illegally. No one is crying about them. It's my understanding that the bill will apply to all illegal immigrants not just illegal immigrants from Mexico.


Agreed, Loca. I'm just as annoyed by the "Legalize the Irish" protest going on. Why should we be granting access to our country, when their countries don't grant Americans access? Do you have any idea how hard it is to get a work visa in Ireland--or any part of the EU for that matter? I think any proposal we come up with should have to be reciprocal.
on Apr 13, 2006
"If you want to close the door to immigration, bust down doors and seize all citizens until they prove their citizenship, and deport anyone who can't do so to countries where they are strangers, Baker, go ahead. But while you're doing so, it would be wise to make plans to destroy the Statue of Liberty and burn down Independence Hall, because the principles upon which those monuments have been cherished no longer exist in America."


You didn't get what I was saying, Gid. I really didn't expect you to.
on Apr 13, 2006
No, I get what you're saying, Baker. Most of your solutions, however, deal with stopping NEW illegal immigration, not dealing with the 11 million already here. We need a policy that does both, frankly, although stopping new illegal immigration is first priority.

But we are a nation BUILT on immigration, Baker, and we need to be careful not to forget that immigration is our HERITAGE. My ancestors didn't go through the lengthy process now required for citizenship; heck, in one case, they stowed away on the ship. We should not block ALL immigration because of the problem of ILLEGAL immigration.

What we need to do is DEVALUE illegal immigration. Right now, there's a pretty hefty value to it, a value that will only be added if Senator Clinton has her way and grants immediate and unconditional citizenship to all within our borders. Yes, we need to go after the employers, yes, we need to go after the coyotes, but we also need to have a legal avenue for new immigrants to supply the labor market, where the demand will soon outstrip the supply, and to provide work for people who WANT to work. Should we wait for Mexico to reciprocate? No, because we ARE the better nation and it is in our own best interests to show that is the case.
on Apr 13, 2006
wow I am in agreement with gid for the aticle, baker and shades for their replies.. yikes I am getting to damn agreeable in my old age,