The journey from there to here

Imagine this scenario: You have just arrived at your favorite buffet. Armed with utensils, you proceed to fill up your plate. You finish your meal and go back for seconds. A man from the table next to you approaches you, cuffs you, and arrests you for public gluttony.

This scenario might seem like something that would play out in a bad, unbelievable science fiction novel, but the simple truth is, we're already headed in that direction. When we gave police officers the power to go into strip clubs and "adult movie houses" to arrest people who were, umm, taking certain matters into their own hands, we employed a logic that has never been sensible in a free society: that what you do behind closed doors DOES matter, and that the government has a right to regulate your behaviour to ensure your own safety.

The logic has recently been extended, in the state of Texas at least, to include police officers trolling the bars to arrest people for public intoxication. The logic is that it will stop drinking and driving, but the logic does not hold, because it presumes a behaviour that is not necessarily guaranteed. While I wouldn't argue the RIGHT of Texas law enforcement officials to uphold a law already on the books, I would argue that their actions certainly give us cause to question the validity of such laws in the first place. Baker rightly commented on terpfan's thread on the police issue that government only has as much power as we give it. That is why we must stop giving it so much power.

The long term implications of these actions are terrible. In Texas, if you're a member of a country club, you are in a private club, and there would be no right to enforce such a law. So the wealthy, of course, are immune to these actions. And as an increasing number of employers require background checks, a growing number of Texans stand to become part of a permanent underclass because of their free time activities, regardless of how responsible they are in the exercise of those activities. Certainly noone is going to advance to a boardroom with a number of public intoxication convictions on their "rap sheet".

We need our police force to protect and to serve. They SHOULD be there for domestic assault; they SHOULD be there to answer a rape call. They should not be there to police activities of individuals who are doing no public harm in the course of their actions. To do so wastes the money of taxpayers and leads to greater resentment of the lower class towards a police force that was allegedly designed to protect them, but is increasingly being employed to harass them.


Comments (Page 1)
4 Pages1 2 3  Last
on Mar 30, 2006

Well, I wonder when they are going to find the time to do this patrol? In addition just a few interesting tidbits for you and "activities of individuals who are doing no public harm".

Here in Florida anyway 38% of all pedestrian falalities are above the legal limit. Guess it means don't drink and walk!?

also:

Alcohol-related fatalities 1,093
Alcohol-related injuries 17,580
Alcohol-related crashes 23,013
Alcohol-related fatal crashes 998
Alcohol-related injury crashes 11,002

People that die from Domestic Abuse: (the crime you cited as more important) in 2004 there were 184 deaths (Fla only).

People that die from rape: That is reported as Homicides, the number of reported rapes in 2004 was 94,635 (Nationwide, not just in fla).

I think you are being a little over the top with your scenario. I do not feel its harassing someone when they are arrested for DUI or Drunkness in public. You evedently hav enever had a family member seriously injured or killed by a DUI or attacked by a drunk in a bar or walkingdown the sidewalk.

I will never forget the drunk I kicked out of a bar in Ft. Lauderdale and he proceeded to wander/stagger into the street and before I could catch him, he got waffled by a PU and killed. Drinking in excess is just not good for you, in any way shape or form. Oh and I do enjoy a cold frosty now and then, limit 2 per outing or at home.

 

on Mar 30, 2006

Oh and I do enjoy a cold frosty now and then, limit 2 per outing or at home.

That's nice. What if the police officer on the barstool next to you decides those two are too much?

 

ShadowWar,

I didn't address the issue of DUI, did I? I addressed the issue of arresting people IN BARS for Public Intoxication. While you may applaud the idea of a nation where all individuality is forbidden once you walk off your property line, I do not. The argument about public gluttony was NOT over the top.

These Texas police are NOT arresting these individuals because they are posing a threat to anyone, they are arresting them because they have consumed, in the police officer's subjective opinion, too much alcohol. Get off your high and mighty throne before turning your response into a flame.

 

 

on Mar 30, 2006
If you take your pants off in a privately-owned restaurant you are arrested for public indecency. If you are arrested for being drunk in a privately-owned bar, you can't be arrested for public intoxication? No, they aren't arresting them because they are a threat, they are arresting them because they are breaking public intoxication laws.

If you say that someone 'polishing his rocket ship' in a theater is no biggie, I have to assume you mean an adult theater. Aside from the mess, though, are you going to make a law restricting such activities to adult theaters? Otherwise, in the eyes of the law, the police will have no right to mess with someone yanking it in the seat next to your kid watching bambi.

And, frankly, in the eyes of the law, what's the difference between a theater and a mall or amusement park? Sure, to you the situation is obvious, but the law is blind until you make laws specifically spelling out the situation. The Libertarian ideal here would leave people able to yank it anywhere, wouldn't it? You really want a nation where a perv can come in, sit down, and pull out his johnson in the seat next to your kid, and the police can do nothing?
on Mar 30, 2006

That's nice. What if the police officer on the barstool next to you decides those two are too much?

ShadowWar,
I didn't address the issue of DUI, did I? I addressed the issue of arresting people IN BARS for Public Intoxication. While you may applaud the idea of a nation where all individuality is forbidden once you walk off your property line, I do not. The argument about public gluttony was NOT over the top.
These Texas police are NOT arresting these individuals because they are posing a threat to anyone, they are arresting them because they have consumed, in the police officer's subjective opinion, too much alcohol. Get off your high and mighty throne before turning your response into a flame.

Whoa back up and punt partner! No flaming here. Just pointing out a few facts for consideration. Your post was on public intoxication, I pointed out a few facts that go along with that very subject, inaddition to the fact that after they leave the bar, they have to get from point A to point B by either walking (which I have shown can be rather hazardous), or Drive, which we all know is not a good deal.

As for your little rant on me, if the law decides 2 is too many, then I would cut back to whatever they deem the legal limit. We are a nation of laws, made by people that are elected by the people. If you don't like the laws, ge them repealed (happens all the time) or vote out the idiot that put it in.

Oh and I am still looking for the bit in my post where I "applaud the idea of a nation where all individuality is forbidden once you walk off your property line". Hmmm can't find it.

Oh and can you point me to your source of information as to the cops now "trolling" the bars and under what statute they are supposedly arresting these poor innocent people. Thanks. Oh heres the link to all Texas laws and Bills and Court Decisions: http://www.findlaw.com/11stategov/tx/laws.html

Maybe you got it from here: http://www.statesman.com/news/content/news/stories/local/03/26kelso.html

"You've got to hand it to the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission, a state agency that has an amazing grasp of the obvious.

Over six months, TABC agents issued 2,281 criminal citations to people in Texas bars, many of them cited because they were drunk. "

He even goes on to use the food analogy. Which of course it is not illeagal to do, you are free to kill yourself slowley by overeating if you so choose. In fact you are free to drink yourslef silly in your own home or that of a friend. It is only in a public place they are having a problem with it. DOn't like the law, get it changed. And I am willing to bet a tiddy sum that you will not find any regular street cops doing this type of arrest/citation. It seems to be the TABC who job it is to police alcohol and other related offenses.

Lighten up, this is not an infringement on your individual rights, its a law that the idiots have decided to enforce this way and people who may get caught drinking to much are a little out of sorts. I have a solution, don't drink too much. Novel Idea.. huh... 

on Mar 30, 2006
I don't know how to feel about the public intoxication deal. I think it is more due to our use of "no smoking in public" policies than the public indecency ones. I've heard of people being baited out onto the sidewalk from their house by the police and then arrested for pi. I think that's wrong, and I'm not crazy about the bar thing either.

But... I have to look at this from a standpoint of 'rights'. Not the right to be drunk in a bar, mind you, but the right of a community to make the laws they choose to make. Where I find a problem with Libertarian ideals is they leave a LOT open to interpretation, as with the 'rocket ship' example above. I hate the idea of judges having that much leeway to 'interpret' on days they are in bad mood or when they have someone in front of them they don't like.

That's why when people say "the cops shouldn't be able to do that", the first thing I think of is 'why'? In order to restrict a community from enforcing a statute, you have to have a good reason. If you can arrest a guy who is slobbering drunk in a mall, you need to specify, legally, that bars are different. If you can't arrest someone for masturbating in a theater, you REALLY need to specify that legally to make sure they do it in a place that kids aren't.

That's the trouble. To be really just, Libertarian ideals seem to need MORE government definition of behavior. The police shouldn't mess with me here, but obviously no one wants me doing that there, so we have to make a law differentiating between here and there. Otherwise, you're going to be arresting a lot of people for assault when they take matters into their own hands.
on Mar 30, 2006

Oh and can you point me to your source of information as to the cops now "trolling" the bars and under what statute they are supposedly arresting these poor innocent people.

Actually it's being pretty widely reported in all media sources here in Texas. The Amarillo police chief went so far as to get on the local news station and tell people if they see you in a bar and you're drunk, they'll haul you in.

The current law actually states that you need to present a danger to yourself or others, a standard that is, unfortunately, QUITE subjective. One police officer might construe that to be stumbling drunk, another might draw the line at "tipsy".

Of all of those stats you quoted, shadow, how many did alcohol cause? The answer is ZERO. All of those casualties were caused by INDIVIDUALS, who should be held responsible for their actions.

As for changing the law, how do you think that starts? Do you think we wave a magic wand and repeal it? Nope, it doesn't work that way. We need to increase public awareness that there is a problem, we need to present solutions, and we need to work to get responsible legislators elected. All of which, I might add, I am doing. Writing articles on the subject is one step in that process.

We are certainly a "nation of laws", shadow, but is it fair or reasonable to spend tax money prosecuting and imprisoning people for their actions when those actions involve consenting adults and do no harm to anyone besides possibly the person taking those actions? It's a police state mentality to enforce a subjective standard of reality.

Laws should make sense, shadow, they should have a purpose. And a law that forbids drinking in public has no such purpose.

on Mar 30, 2006

If you can't arrest someone for masturbating in a theater, you REALLY need to specify that legally to make sure they do it in a place that kids aren't.

My problem actually isn't about punishing someone for "polishing their rocket" in a theater, baker. My problem is that policemen will lay in wait in these theaters for sometimes hours watching porn on the public dime while waiting for someone to show up and offend. Then they will go out and bemoan the fact that they don't have the manpower to pursue the criminal that broke into someone's home and raped them.

I'm not a big fan of public lewdness, and will readily admit that some of my contemporaries go too far. I think that there certainly should be establishments where such behaviour is permissable, but that there should be ways to ensure minors aren't allowed anywhere NEAR the joints. In other words, there SHOULD be a stigma attached to these places just to keep them from becoming lax in enforcement.

But I don't feel comfortable with my tax dollars paying some Sergeant Stadenko wannabe to get his rocks off pursuing these folks.

 

on Mar 30, 2006
"I'm not a big fan of public lewdness, and will readily admit that some of my contemporaries go too far. I think that there certainly should be establishments where such behaviour is permissable, but that there should be ways to ensure minors aren't allowed anywhere NEAR the joints. In other words, there SHOULD be a stigma attached to these places just to keep them from becoming lax in enforcement."


Then you admit that in general Libertarian points of view can often lead to MORE laws. Like in your case here, a public indecency law wouldn't be enough, but you'd have to have a couple of them, one to define all the sorts of places where it is okay, and others to punish people for allowing kids to be nearby. Oh, and you'd need one to punish kids for sneaking in. Oh, and one to punish adults for helping sneak kids in... yadda yadda.

I don't think cops need to hang out in adult theaters either, but if crimes are occuring, and they ignore the places that crimes occur, they aren't doing their job. I know the Libertarian view that we need to focus on crimes against others, but I think this one area is a crime against other people. I'm not so sure about public intoxication, but again, Libertarians generally differ with selective enforcement. Why make one place off limits?

Not going where you know crimes are being committed smells of selective enforcement, and that to me is what Libertarians oppose. It's like people who believe cops shouldn't hang out in the projects, even though everyone knows drugs are sold there out in the open. You have to also accept that police presence is a deterrant.
on Mar 30, 2006
They call me...Tater Salad
on Mar 30, 2006
"They call me...Tater Salad"


You can't fix stupid, either. ( one of the funniest human beings on the face of the earth, btw, though I'm trying to get my head around what it has to do with this other than Texas, lol. )
on Mar 30, 2006
Me and my kids got into a pretty good argument about this issue. Being the good teens they are, they have responded well to our teaching that alcohol is not something worth messing with. I guess I took them by surprise when I disagreed with the police in this case. It is the job of the police to patrol their areas, watch for indicators of criminal behavior, respond to emergency situations and investigate crime. Through their efforts and support from the rest of us, crime is reduced and public order is maintained.

Going in to a bar to arrest people for drinking excessively not only doesn't reduce crime, it wastes the time of the police officers. I remember the waste of our time as paramedics when we would get calls to "help" patients who had no real medical need. It took an ambulance off the streets, wasted dispatches time and made for a lot of unnecessary paperwork.

Unless the police officers in this case can show good reason to be arresting drunk people in bars, I don't see any difference beteween this and the lady who called 9/11 for a broken toenail. Sure she had the right to call us, and sure the police officers have the authority to arrest a person whose blood alcohol level exceeds the legal limit... but does either make any sense whatsoever?

In a free society it is up to mature, freedom loving people to know the difference between what they can do and what they should do.
on Mar 30, 2006
though I'm trying to get my head around what it has to do with this other than Texas,

According to his act, the nickname was derived from a Public Intoxication bust when he was being flippant to the cop.

Just recently was subjected to "Blue Collar Comedy Tour" again ...
on Mar 30, 2006
"Unless the police officers in this case can show good reason to be arresting drunk people in bars"


...other than the fact that they are breaking the law? If you don't like the law, amend it, but if it is illegal to be drunk in public, then the police have an obligation to arrest people who break those laws.

Selective enforcement isn't the way to make change, it just breeds corruption. "Common sense" is great, but if you are standing with a cop who has had a bad day, you'd much rather he deal with the strict wording of the law than "common sense".
on Mar 30, 2006
Public Intoxication bust


Right, if I remember the police were arresting him for being drunk in Public. He responded that he was drunk in the bar and the bouncer threw him out of the bar into Public.

IG
on Mar 30, 2006
increase public awareness that there is a problem, we need to present solutions,


I think that changing the law will be a tough road to hoe. People will see that the police are keeping drunks off the road and applaud.

IG
4 Pages1 2 3  Last