The journey from there to here

Yes, this is related to my last article.

When the latest incident here at JoeUser occured, I feel that there were a number of people who wrongly perceived my fence sitting as being selfishly motivated. It was not selfishly motivated, but in fact, came about because I am simply sick and tired of being ripped apart.

It's not just here at JU; that's only a part of it. It's everywhere. As I mentioned in one of the previous articles on the subject, the minister of the church we have been attending and my fire chief have a long standing feud, and I am caught in the middle between a man I consider my friend and someone upon whom my loyalty is directly tied to my performance as a firefighter and soon to be first responder. This feud goes back to before I even heard of the existence of our small town and doesn't concern me; yet, there is a constant push from both sides for me to take sides on the issue.

Add to that the fact that our small town is literally torn apart by the factions from the two predominant churches, and, in fact, a split between members of the larger church. Each absolutely detests anything presented by another faction, and the arguments spill over into council decisions, fire meetings, Lions club meetings, and virtually every situation where two or more of our citizens have contact. As a result, we have no marshall, have been deprived of several grants that could have improved the standard of life and fiscal position of our town, and many families avoid the conflict in the church altogether by refusing to attend the churches in town.

Then there is my work as an advocate. There are two factions there, and they have no quarter, no room for compromise. Each is convinced of the rightness of his idea to the exclusion of others, and as a result, every question is met with a debate on the merits of each's position.

The common denominator of all of these conflicts is that I see validity to virtually all of the arguments presented. I believe there's room for compromise and not an "all or nothing" position. On this site, for instance, I was accused of cheerleading Brad, when, in fact, my comments were empathy for the exhaustion he expressed, something I have known quite a lot of, and for the work he has done to build his company. They were not an expression of solidarity for his decisions as an administrator.

My loyalty to Brad is based on the fact that I am appreciative for what he has done both in the creation of JoeUser and in improving my abilities as a writer. All I have to do is go back to the articles I wrote in my first few months at JU and the articles I've written in the past few weeks, and I see a substantial difference. There is an enhanced professionalism, I am more assertive in backing up my positions, and, as a result, I've become better educated as to the facts. I'm a better researcher, a more competent and confident person because of that, and I have no doubt this will have a serious positive effect on my personal life.

But that loyalty doesn't mean I don't have loyalty to Sabrina and Simon. In fact, since the idea was blown, I have no problem in stating that the reason I tried to sit on the fence is because I hoped it would blow over and Simon would eventually be reinstated. I didn't feel that adding gasoline to the fire would help that cause very much. Now, of course, there will be people who don't believe this at all, but frankly, Scarlett, I don't give a damn!

I am tired of being torn apart, tired of being forced to choose sides in everything. It's petty and juvenile, and I'd hope as adults we are above it. But if we're not, so be it. Just be careful, though, you may not like the side I choose.


Comments (Page 2)
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on Mar 03, 2006
you don't know enough about the specifics to make a judgement as to who's at fault with my current disillusionment with people in general.


That is true Gid, all I know is what you choose to share here and I do know you are operating on library time. That's all I know. So please don't get defensive when, going by what you write, I offer an opinion.

In my experience, tact and diplomacy are great in times of peace, but when people go to "war" they generally prefer action.

If you say you genuinely tried to get along with people.... I BELIEVE you. Why wouldn't I? It wasn't my intent to suggest you didn't try.

The guitar thing is BEYOND my ability to understand. Will they kick you out of fellowship for not believing that?
on Mar 03, 2006
There are TWO SIDES to this story here...


At this point, there's about 17 sides to this story.

Honestly, Gid--I like both you and LW, and it's not my battle to fight. I hope you guys work it out. I think there was a giant miscommunication of intents and meanings.

It would have been as unfair to take sides with LW as it would to take sides with Brad.


I certainly hope you aren't insinuating that I have taken a side. I have neither been asked to, nor do I plan to--my opinion on the subject will not help to resolve it. The only stance I took was to ask Dr. Guy to stop sniping at someone who is not coming back.
on Mar 03, 2006
But true friends will not make demands of you (and that is what taking sides is all about - making a demand of you).


When it gets personal, true friends, real friends I am not necessarily talking about internet buddies here, will step up.

I have a b/f who I didn't support while she had an abortion (meaning I didn't go with her to the clinic). But when her "other" friends attacked her verbally and with rumor for having the abortion (something I didn't agree with) I stepped up and confronted them. They were making personal attacks against her.

To me that is friendship. She didn't ask me too, and I didn't use her absence of asking as a reason to let it go.

So I don't know that we are really saying opposite things here...I don't think a real friend should EVER have to ask for help against personal attacks.

But that's my opinion.
on Mar 03, 2006
The only stance I took was to ask Dr. Guy to stop sniping at someone who is not coming back.


That, imo, is a "friendly" thing to do.
on Mar 03, 2006
As I said before, I have come to greatly respect Brad. While I wouldn't have made the same decision he did regarding Emp, IT WASN'T MY DECISION TO MAKE. Get that? NOTHING I could have said or done would have made ONE WHIT of difference!!!! NOTHING! I respected LW and Emp as well (at least up until that point), and the issue was, I didn't want to take sides AGAINST them! THAT'S why I chose to "sit on the fence".


Just for the record...I wasn't talking about this incident but primarily the church/fire dept/small town thing.
on Mar 03, 2006

Just for the record...I wasn't talking about this incident but primarily the church/fire dept/small town thing.

The fire dept thing is another issue. It gores to a personal difference between the minister and the fire chief. I will admit (and have, to his face) that our fire chief is a bit of a butthead. But when those lights go on and we respond to a fire, he is the center of my universe. I guarantee you, if your house was burning down you wouldn't want it any other way.

And that's the core of the conflict there. I will not quit the fire department because of their petty conflict, and while I am "on duty" with the fire department, my allegiance is 100% with my chief. That is my duty. When I am not on a call, I can cast my allegiance anywhere else I choose, but when I am on a call, I am a firefighter first, and not in any sense of the word an individual. I owe my allegiance to the team, and the head of that team is my chief.

on Mar 03, 2006

The only stance I took was to ask Dr. Guy to stop sniping at someone who is not coming back.

I would be interested to know where I have been sniping. 

on Mar 03, 2006
And that's the core of the conflict there. I will not quit the fire department because of their petty conflict, and while I am "on duty" with the fire department, my allegiance is 100% with my chief. That is my duty. When I am not on a call, I can cast my allegiance anywhere else I choose, but when I am on a call, I am a firefighter first, and not in any sense of the word an individual. I owe my allegiance to the team, and the head of that team is my chief.


Well imho that sounds to me like a well thought out choice. I wouldn't call you a fence sitter on that one tiny little bit. If your minister thinks so then I feel for ya.

I guess maybe I misunderstood what you consider fence sitting and as compared to what I consider fence sitting. Because everything you just said I don't consider sitting on the fence.

Take my friend who had the abortion for instance. She couldn't say I was sitting the fence because I was clear about how I felt. But if I were to sit and say nothing while her friends (one of which is a in-law of mine) ripped her up because I didn't want to get involved because it involved my family etc....well to me, that woulda been fence sitting.
on Mar 03, 2006

When it gets personal, true friends, real friends I am not necessarily talking about internet buddies here, will step up.

This is true.  But if the dispute is between 2 of your friends, who do you step up for?  I stated that if you do pick a side when 2 friends fight, you are going to lose out in the end, for when the friends get back together, as they often do, they will remember that you picked a side. So the best thing to do is to be friends to both, but dont put yourself in the middle.

on Mar 03, 2006
But if the dispute is between 2 of your friends, who do you step up for?


Honestly Doc I never had this happen. If I have two friends who are arguing over, say, a man. There will be a sequence of events to that whole fight. Maybe one dated him and now the other wants permission or something of that nature.

I am gonna have an opinion. It may not be "right" but it will be mine.

I'd keep my mouth shut unless asked what I thought...then I'd be honest. And whatever my opinion on that subject, it would seem I am taking sides.

My real life friends might get a little pissed at first, but they wouldn't expect me to lie, or say, "Um, I don't have an opinion.." when I do.

But I don't think men and women always agree on what constitutes friendship.

My husband wouldn't EVER offer an opinion about a situation involving two people he likes. EVER.
on Mar 03, 2006

But I don't think men and women always agree on what constitutes friendship.

My husband wouldn't EVER offer an opinion about a situation involving two people he likes. EVER.

I think you may be right.  However only having ever inhabited the male body, that is the only perspective I can give.

on Mar 03, 2006
No, it's not just "imperfection". Here in town, I have a choice between churches that believe it's a mortal sin if I play "amazing grace" on my guitar, or one where I will have to face false allegations of abuse and neglect after every week if I DARE show my face there. If I go into town, I have a choice between those two sorts of churches, or churches whose doctrine directly opposes mine. What kind of choice is that? As I have said before, I have never been the subject of pure, true hatred until recently, and that hatred has come EXCLUSIVELY from people who label themselves "Christians". I've spent 35 3/4 years being "tolerant" of others' views, and it's about time a few people are tolerant of MINE.


Sounds like you don't have much of a choice here Gid. You are saying you have a minister in a feud? Not good. We are to do all things that glorify God and this doesn't sound good to be coming from a minister. He's supposed to be Christ to us and acting on his behalf. Peter, near the end of his life, pleaded with the Pastors to be good examples to those under them in 2 Pet 5.

Also you have every right to worship God with your guiter. There are many musical instruments in scripture. I think of David worshipping God with his whole heart dancing in the street with the music playing all around him. His wife looked at him with contempt. God was not pleased with her.

We are to go to church for two purposes. One to worship and glorify God. The other to build, encourage and edify the body. If that's not happening....Satan most likely has that church. It's time to get out. The leadership at the top makes such a huge difference in how the body worships and interacts with each other, and it sounds like this is not a good place for you spiritually to grow.

I have been for the last seven years in a loving church doing just that, glorifying God and helping each other both physically and spiritually. Three years ago we had 75 people, today we are pushing 300 in a small town where church attendance is normally low. God is blessing us. There is so much work to do. I really believe Satan is distracting many from the job we are called to do; reaching, teaching, serving and sending. We need to be aware and not let him put obstacles in our way.

Prayer changes things
on Mar 04, 2006
A true friend will respect your views and agree to disagree. I doubt Mary Matlin and James Carville make such demands upon each other. I doubt their marriage could survive if it did.


The above is true. However, Mary and James are exact opposites, split down the middle on fundamental issues; a choice that isn't common among friends or found in successful marriages making them a poor example. Opposites statistically end in divorce, as opposite friends eventually go their separate ways because there’s very little glue present to hold them together over time.

But if the dispute is between 2 of your friends, who do you step up for?

I would measure the subject matter, the pertinence of me taking a position then react accordingly. I find it odd to choose friends that are so different core value wise, that you're challenged by their conflict and have to choose sides.

on Mar 04, 2006

I would measure the subject matter, the pertinence of me taking a position then react accordingly. I find it odd to choose friends that are so different core value wise, that you're challenged by their conflict and have to choose sides.

It is not always a core value thing.  I have been in the situation, and while I commisurated with each, I would not take a side.  After it was resovled, I was still friends with both, as they were with each other.

on Mar 06, 2006
It is not always a core value thing


I disagree.... When two people carry difference of opinion to the extent where the "friendship" is at stake, the subject matter has a core value or moral relationship. Over the years, I’ve choose my friends because their values, morals and lifestyles happened to be similar to mine, mind you not the same. And, there’s one other component that plays, balanced interpersonal skills.

Over 35 years, I've had one serious difference of opinion with a friend, which lasted a few months. Our mutual friends didn’t take sides, nor were they expected to. However, they worried because we're both strong men. Fortunately, they made it a point to get the both of us to recognize how much history we had and would be lost by maintaining the ill will. Consequently, the value of friendship and all it's made up of won out. We talked, and instantly put the difference of opinion behind us, and that was many years ago.

In retrospect, it was easy to see the cost of carrying our difference of opinion to far. The healing couldn't have happened if our interpersonal skills were unbalanced and his Jewish values or my Catholic values were distinctly different. Say, he was an atheist or agnostic, a strong person that had weak social skills, or maybe a loner type that didn’t value true long term friendship over being right. Without similar core values almost any difference of opinion or just being right, could easily be the downfall of friendship.
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